Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Charriu]

Nothing to complain here, either. Next!

[Krill]

OK, I'll take Ottomans as read. I'll put up France:

France: Agriculture/The Wheel. UB: Observatory replacement: Salon. +1 free specialist. UU: Musket replacement. Musketeer. +1 movement point.

Which mack has said has the best UU in the game so I don't see this as being a problem and Arabia:

Arabia: Mysticism/Agriculture. UB: Library replacement: Madrassa. 2 Priest slots, 4 culture, cost 70. UU: Knight replacement: Camel Archer. Starts with March.

Arabia was described back in post 108:

Egypt and Arabia were built around the same theme: how to shrine a religion. They are the only two civs that can routinely plan to shrine a religion, every other civ has to either build a temple and wait 34 turns (and pay the 2 food for 1 hammer tax), or build Henge/Oracle and wait 50 turns. The temple option is always awkward, because of 80 hammer cost and then the food loss with the specialist makes it much more difficult to whip the city (realistically need a 2 food city to manage it, and it also requires a granary). Both options pushes back the timetable so much that the decision comes down to Shrine versus Academy. It's almost impossible to get both because then you have to find 300gpp to get the first golden age. PHI leaders can't do it effectively. I think Egypt and Arabia are the only two civs that can actually manage to get both as well without PHI but this requires 2 cities.

Compare and contrast: Arabia has Agri/Myst so can go religion first, and then try to right the economy until Writing comes in. Egypt has to fit religion around a standard opening because of starting Agri/Wheel, but that is doable, plenty of games have religion dropped into second city on the turn of founding, or there is a push to Monotheism.

Egypt can spend 30 hammers to get two specialist slots. But add in the library, and it's possible to run 4 specialists for 120 hammers. Arabia can run 4 specialists for 70 hammers. That is the first GP as mixed odds in 9 turns (for Arabia, 9 turns after completing the Madrassa, for Egypt, it takes longer because it is a guaranteed GP but you can start sooner). The second GP in 34 turns in the same city for Arabia, or can be started in a second city for Egypt to overlap and complete sooner for the Academy. The third GP can be generated from a second city within 10 turns after the second GP is completed for Arabia, or from the first city for Egypt after the GS is completed. The context is then, if the first great person is completed by T70, which is actually achievable, the second one can come out any time between T90 and T105, and the third comes by T115 which is fine for the first GA.

All these figures change if you have PHI: Arabia gets the first GP at mixed odds after 4 turns (4 specialists might causes a food deficit, but for 4 turns it's easily sustainable), then gets the guaranteed alternate type 12 turns later whilst saving food again, then blitzes out the third GP in 10 turns. 26 turns from start to finish.

Trivial. Potentially even interesting. But is it any stronger than just grabbing an ordinary library and shoving out a GS in a less taxing time frame, between T75 and T95, whilst you have a second city get up to speed and push out another GS on the overlap? I don't think it is, because you pay for being able to do this by having to actually get the early religion.

That's why I don't think Egypt has any power on the UB. It's all flavour. Arabia has some power on the UB because it is a cheap library and extra culture (it's relevant if you are pushing for 40% culture borders which have value in themselves). It know that someone (Cairo?) raised the possibility of having a priest slot on the Ziggarut. That adds flavour to the UB, it supports keeping the Ziggarut at Priesthood, but it doesn't add any power except through a RNG granted perfect sentry in the Gspy being more easily accessible. Sumeria has to then push out a GP quicker with Oracle if successful, but then we are just shoving Sumeria even harder into it's pigeonhole.

Adding March to Camel Archers just makes them better clean up units. How many fights do most units get into? I reckon about 4 is the most they get into. That's 4 times march has an effect, on getting units back into the field quicker. The real power, IMO, is on the Madrassa, and it is sorely underrated IMO.

[Charriu]

So no changes on France? Ok, but I just wanted to point out that France is the first Renaissance Civ we are looking at. So should we consider France as the level we want to achieve in that area like with Inca in the Ancient?

March on the Camel Archer is nice. Will they still need no horses?

[superdeath]

I cannot comment on France's power-level as i dont use musketmen units that often. So ill /nod towards mack's belief that France is good as is.

France can be the Renaissance power-level to look towards imo.

[Krill]

So no changes on France? Ok, but I just wanted to point out that France is the first Renaissance Civ we are looking at. So should we consider France as the level we want to achieve in that area like with Inca in the Ancient?

March on the Camel Archer is nice. Will they still need no horses?

I cannot comment on France's power-level as i dont use musketmen units that often. So ill /nod towards mack's belief that France is good as is.

France can be the Renaissance power-level to look towards imo.

The civs I suggested at the start of the process were Russia as the end point civ, and then China and Vikings as the Medieval era civs. France is the first civ that really fits between those two points, and IMO is a good test to see if we put Russia in a good place. To me, France just seems "Right". It has a UB that has, at best, a 35% production bonus with CRE and a UU that essentially has two states: it either has formation so gets odds on knights, or it doesn't and knights can straight up beat muskeeters when not on defensive terrain. The former is only buildable if AGG (5XP + free C1 = formation out the gate).

The UB is actually available in the Medieval era if you want it. Astro can be double bulbed before knights are around, which is a good metric for how to value the UU in terms of when it appears in the game IMO. Yes Astro is a Renaissance tech in terms of cost, but for the purposes of balancing UU and UB, I think we have to slot it in at the point it can be bulbed.

AGG/CRE doesn't exist now, but I think that we should be keeping the specific trait pairings out of the evaluation except to see if anything is broken, or just too good if a civ and a specific trait are combined: PRO/Inca for example. I don't think this problem exists for France: every player can get triple promotions on knights with barracks, stable, Colosseum, vassalage and theocracy, so C2/Pinch knights do exist for all leaders, rather than just CHM leaders as in base BtS. Therefore the Musketeer in RtR has greater opposition, and is relatively weaker than it's previously has been.

How good is the UB though? Well a direct comparison is that, with trait production modifiers, the Salon is better than the current Research Institute. It costs 150 hammers compared to 200 in the current mod versions (but I'm proposing drop the RI to 120 hammers in this post, and it gives a free specialist rather than a specific scientist. And it does not require a library. The only time I think you could argue it as worse is if someone was on a direct bulb path to Education, and even then...that seems to be just rarer than an Astro bulb path, as the Astro path meets so many other needs.

How valuable is a free specialist? It's a pop point that does not need the up front food cost to grow (can be anything up to 300 food), does not require feeding (2fpt), does not affect maintenance costs and is not affected by inflation. As it does not require feeding, that frees up other population that would need to work farms to work other tiles, which might be another way to value it (2 grass farms plus a spec, or 1 grass farm and a workshop?) I remember Seven once posting about how to value the GL, and it explained it really well, but I can't find it now The only answer I can give is: A lot. You can put it into whatever slot you deem necessary and it won't wreck GP plans as well.

tl;dr I don't think France needs changing. But I think we need to reconsider the Russia at the end of this process: I'm currently wondering if we want to change the Russian RI scientist to a free specialist.

[Krill]

March on the Camel Archer is nice. Will they still need no horses?

I don't care either way TBH. I don't think it's actually important from a power perspective, if you don't have either by Guilds then you're probably screwed somehow. With that in mind, if there is no reason to change the CA to needing horse and iron, I wouldn't change it.

[Charriu]

I did not mean that France needed change. I just wanted to know if I may have missed something.
I agree that the horse requirement is not relevant for it's power. The only nice thing is that even if your horses are pillaged, production can continue. March obviously is more important.

[Krill]

So France is OK, anyone see any issues with Arabia? Note, in this form, it would require horse and iron but if people think that should be different then speak now...

Arabia: Mysticism/Agriculture. UB: Library replacement: Madrassa. 2 Priest slots, 4 culture, cost 70. UU: Knight replacement: Camel Archer. Starts with March.

[Gavagai]

a UU that essentially has two states: it either has formation so gets odds on knights, or it doesn't and knights can straight up beat muskeeters when not on defensive terrain. The former is only buildable if AGG (5XP + free C1 = formation out the gate).

Does not Drill2 also give an access to formation? It definitely does in base BTS. In that case, protective civs can build formation Muskets even easier.

[Old Harry]

So France is OK, anyone see any issues with Arabia? Note, in this form, it would require horse and iron but if people think that should be different then speak now...

Arabia: Mysticism/Agriculture. UB: Library replacement: Madrassa. 2 Priest slots, 4 culture, cost 70. UU: Knight replacement: Camel Archer. Starts with March.

For flavour it really shouldn't require horse. I don't care about iron.