Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

Gav: yeah, D2 does give access to formation, but D1, D2, Formation musketeers are 11.25, C2 Knights are strength 12. It's only AGG musketeers that get odds without defensive terrain.

OH: just iron then? Seems reasonable.

[Gavagai]

Promos like formation decrease the strength of a defending unit instead of increasing the strength of an attacking unit. If a C1 formation Musketeer attacks a C2 Knight, it would be 9.9 vs 9.5. Other way around it would be 12 vs 12.15, still in favor of a Musket.
(You need 5xp to take C1 formation but you also need 5xp to take C2 formation with Agg).

[Krill]

PRO can't get formation without taking Drill 2 though, and Knights ignore first strikes. C1/D1/formation is not a legitimate promotion path. PRO musketeers can't get odds on equal XP Knights on offense.

Edit: formation needs C2 or D2. That might be where the misunderstanding comes from.

[Gavagai]

Oh, I was for some reason under the assumption that new PRO gives Drill 2 and Drill 3 instead of CG1, D1. Useful to know, given that I play a PRO civ in PB 42

[Krill]

The new PRO gives D1 and D3 It's an easy mistake to make.

[Krill]

OK, I'm going to put France and Arabia down as acceptable for now.

That pushes us towards civs that probably need rebuilding on some level. Ethiopia seems like a good candidate to consider next: the other musket UU are signed off, as are the other monument UB.

How about this to start the discussion off:

Ethiopia: Hunting/Mining. UB: Library replacement. 2 Merchant slots. UU: Musket replacement. Oromo warrior. Starts with Drill 2 and Drill 4.

Monuments aren't going to work. There is nothing really left to put on them. This might be too much though.

[Charriu]

First of all I'm starting to loose the big picture. Would it be possible to post all the civs that are set in your first post. Just so that we could have an overview.

To the civ at hand. The Oromo is interesting and I would play it. I have a slight issue with the UB. Not with the merchants slots, those I like, but rather with replacing the library. I have the feeling that we already have a lot of UBs replacing library or require Writing. But I could be wrong about that, because I lack the overview. What about instead replacing the lighthouse, which has the tiny benefit that you don't have to look for a new asset and name for the UB.

[Krill]

Here is my rough working sheet:
I was intending to do that this morning, but I was turfed off the PC until now I have everything in a working document plus some rough thoughts, but here is what has been "Agreed" to so far:

Arabia: Mysticism/Agriculture. UB: Library replacement: Madrassa. 2 Priest slots, 4 culture, cost 70. UU: Knight replacement: Camel Archer. starts with March.

Aztecs: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Court house replacement: Sacrificial Alter. 50% anger duration after sacrificing population, requires Priesthood, cost 90. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Woodsman 2.

Babylon: Agriculture/The Wheel. UB: Granary replacement: Garden. Requires Agriculture, cost 45, +1 health, no bonus production from trait. UU: Archer replacement. +50% against melee, no free strike, starts with Drill 1 and 2.

Carthage: Fishing/Mining. UB: Harbour replacement: Cothon. +1 trade route. UU: Horse Archer replacement. Numidian Cavalry. +35% against melee, -35% against spearmen.

Celts: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Wall replacement: Dun. Free Guerrilla 2 promotion to units built in this city, no trait production modifier. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Guerilla 2.

China: Agriculture/Mining. UB: Theatre replacement: Pavilion. Available at Aesthetics. UU: Crossbow replacement. Causes Collateral Damage (max 60%), +2 free strikes.

Egypt: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Obelisk. +2 Priest slots. UU: Chariot replacement. War Chariot. Strength 5. -25% against archers. Flank attack against Catapults (3 units, max 100%).

France: Agriculture/The Wheel. UB: Observatory replacement: Salon. +1 free specialist. UU: Musket replacement. Musketeer. +1 movement point.

Greece: Hunting/Fishing. UB: building replacement: Odeon. +1XP to all land units in addition to base Colosseum XP, cost 60. UU: Axe replacement. Phalanx. +100% defence against chariots.

Inca: Agriculture/Mysticism. UB: Granary replacement: Terrace, +1 culture, cost 45 hammers, No trait production modifier. UU: Warrior replacement: Quechua. +100% against archery units.

Mali: The Wheel, Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Mint. +10% gold, +10% beakers. UU: Archer replacement. Skirmisher. Strength 4, -40% against archers.

Maya: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Colosseum replacement: Ball Court. +4 Happiness. UU: Spear replacement. Holkan. Strength 5.

Mongolia: Hunting/Wheel. UB: Stables replacement: Ger. +1 culture, +4XP to mounted units, requires Archery, +100% production with horse, no trait production modifier. UU: Horse Archer replacement. Keshik. +1 free strike. Ignores terrain movement costs.

Native America: Hunting/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Totem Pole. +3XP to Archery units. UU: scout replacement. Tracker. Starts with Woodsman 3, can create Totem Pole.

Ottomans: Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Aqueduct replacement: Hammam. +2 happy, cost 80. UU: Musket replacement. Janissary. +25% against mounted, archery, melee units.

Russia: Hunting/Mining. UB: University replacement: Research Institute. Cost 120 hammers. Free Scientist. (Editor: may need to change to free specialist) UU: Cavalry replacement. +50% against Mounted units.

Sumeria: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Courthouse replacement: Ziggarut. Available at Writing. Cost 90. UU: axe replacement. Vulture. Strength 6. 25% bonus against melee. 5% bonus against axemen.

Vikings: Hunting/Fishing. UB: Lighthouse replacement: Trading Post. Builds water units +25% faster. UU: Maceman replacement: Berserker. Starts with Amphibious.

Zulu: Agri/Hunting. UB: Barracks replacement: Ikhanda: -20% city maintenance. +100% production with iron. No production modifier from trait. UU: Spear replacement: Impi: -40% against archers, 2 moves.

That leaves the following civs as up for discussion:

America:

Byzantium:

Netherlands:

England:

Ethiopia:

Germany:

Holy Roman Empire:

India:

Japan:

Khmer:

Korea:

Persia:

Portugal:

Spain:

[pindicator]

I think the UU change is the right way to go after the changes to PRO. The UB that Ethiopia had was perhaps the most uninspiring, underwhelming UB in the entire game. But it did allow for faster border pops (8 turns instead of 10 with a monument) and get a leg up in early culture battles and gives them an outside shot at a late game culture victory, something that I think only China has done in RB games and that was with help from the Pavillion's +% culture bonus. So while it wasn't that impactful perhaps that's the direction we should keep the UB in? Perhaps a monument with 2 culture per turn and +25% culture for a pseudo CRE? Might need to make it so it doesn't obsolete either to keep the culture victory aspect alive.

We actually haven't done many Library building UBs looking at the list, but I think there's a danger in putting too many good things on one building, and Libraries are already an early game target. That said, if we're going to go the merchant direction for the UB then I'm all right with trying it out.

[Krill]

Henge'd Ethiopia settles on your borders. How do you reply? It is the same problem as any CRE player...but the point holds: that is a lot of power on one of the earliest available UB. Putting culture on a monument is actually quite destabilising IMO. I don't really know what the best way to rebuild the UB is, but not a monument, and keep most of the power on the UU seems wisest.