[SPOILERS] swans will bite u

[ljubljana]

fyi TAD i am free for roughly the next 15 hours should you find yourself bored and wanting a game :D

but also no pressure of course!!! just because i am obsessed w this civ combo doesn't mean you have to be hahaha

edit: others may disagree but i think i've decided that i want the map settings to be exactly what thrawn wants them to be, so that it will be as fully-realized and comprehensive a victory as possible when we beat them

[ljubljana]

Rethinking have everybody re-pick because some are happy with what they got. What if people who want to repick, post in there thread or PM Kaiser, then using the same pick order as before (skipping whoever decides to keep their civ). That way, people who are happy with what they got can keep their civ and people who want to chance it and try for the Vikings or whoever can. Would be a good comprise with everybody.

thoughts on this? personally i feel that a re-pick is very unlikely to turn out better for us than the actual picks did - we got our first choice overall in Portugal and a strong naval civ that can defend them in Japan, neither of which was guaranteed, and our tests so far strongly suggest to me that if we can survive the galley era with TRs intact, this will be a killer combo up there with Phoenicia/Indonesia in overall power level.

i guess i don't really mind if others re-pick. i think it's a little dubious from a metagame hygeine perspective, but it's probably not bad for us in terms of our odds in the actual game - i can't think of a scarier pilot for the Vikings than thrawn, and we do have some unique and significant weaknesses to their kit. but maybe that logic would backfire in practice and we'll draw more heat early from the other teams due to the LACK of a dedicated longship rush on the board.

idk. i wish it didn't have to come to this, but if folks will have more fun this game with a re-pick, who am i to stand in its way. on the other hand i'm a little worried this will lead to someone sniping Sumeria from thrawn/krill which could make their morale even worse... i am also not too confident anyone besides their team even would choose to re-pick, unless perhaps Woden/Banzai see the same storm clouds we see for them on the horizon re Vikings and want to take them off the table for their opponents.

[Ginger()]

I’ll post my private opinion here since I’m barely a participant, but wtf? Like lol, when did buyers remorse become a thing in drafting? Also poor Kaiser, someone is going to find something to gripe about when the expectations they set aren’t met.

[ljubljana]

I’m barely a participant

.....i think you're a real participant <3

[Ginger()]

Aww thanks <3

But seriously, I’m getting a massive “perfect is the enemy of good” vibe from this setup kerfuffle. I hope it gets off the ground in short order before the second thoughts about commitment start floating.

[ljubljana]

I hope it gets off the ground in short order before the second thoughts about commitment start floating.

Yeah. I'd be really worried about this if our opponents weren't Chevalier who would never flake even without an outrageously strong civ combo, and Woden who bounced ideas around with me literally every single day of the 14-month nightmare of PBEM20. I hope Banzai and Inc aren't having second thoughts, though... But it does sound like the map would still be a few days removed from being ready even if this hadn't come up, so hopefully in the end it won't actually add too much unnecessary time on the clock.

I do get where thrawn's coming from, though. The last game did take over a year, and signing in every day for 12 months to do something that already feels like an unfun chore is more than I feel like I can reasonably ask of someone. And it sounds like they were somehow made to feel like we were all strategically advocating for map settings that disadvantaged them specifically, which would be a pretty low blow in terms of sportsmanship and can't feel good to be on the receiving end of. I just hope we can find a way to get through this non-catastrophically and start trying to kill each other in the usual way :D

[williams482]

I just wish we would start. I'd like to be able to dig into an aspect of this game that isn't shoddy speculation about Thrawn's psychology.

Swapping out of the #1 pick is just weird though, especially given how incredibly vague the "concerning statements" about the map were. I wonder if there's some buyer's remorse over the horrible diplomatic situation Thrawn is clearly expecting, and he just wants to pick someone that will be able to execute a "normal" game instead of relying on annoying pillaging campaigns. If that's the case I'd wager Australia would be the replacement selection, a civ that is neither proficient at nor vulnerable to early rushes of any sort. But I ought to know better than thinking I can predict what Thrawn will do.

[ljubljana]

It is really interesting that Australia, taken with the second pick last time, recieved seemingly no serious consideration here. I tried a few test games w them before our picks and did feel a little underwhelmed - full-cost campi AND full-cost harbors just seemed like such a lift in the early game, plus they have no expansion bonuses and obviously can't skimp there either. The strongest part of their kit seemed to actually be the free housing, which only goes so far without any actual food to fill up the gigantic food boxes at larger city sizes...

do we think there's something of a consensus now that Oz isn't really a top-tier water map civ? or was i playing them wrong (i'm sure i was playing them wrong - are you supposed to just pass on harbors since you don't need lighthouse housing)? it does at least seem likely that their free production is pretty abusable in a team game by following your teammate around and liberating others' CS... but even that requires actually BEATING someone else's fleet which Oz has few inherent advantages towards doing...

edit: also, williams, your argument that picking Oz would lock us into an always war scenario with anyone who might ever intend hostilities against us was probably the #1 reason i didn't think more seriously about them vs Japan. if thrawn does swap to them to get out of a bad diplo situation, it may not have the intended effect, as it still seems prudent for, eg, us to DoW them as soon as we see someone else do so just in case we ever plan on attacking them...

[williams482]

That's true that Oz doesn't do that much to dissuade a determined enemy, but unless everyone in the game is actually thinking "fuck you, Thrawn!" from the beginning instead of "oh shit, very clever civ combo that is liable to attack us anyway" (clearly what we have in mind, and I'd imagine the others thing the same), there's really not much point to starting a forever war with Thrawn on no provocation. And yeah, Australia is a slow starter who gets some nice yield bonuses and can be leveraged cleverly later in the game, but they definitely aren't scary in the way that Norway or even Netherlands is.

[ljubljana]

yeah, i guess i just don't get why it would even be in their interest to repick :/ I'd much rather face Australia/Sumeria or Netherlands/Sumeria than the terrifying Vikings/Sumeria. Something like Dutch/Sumeria seems scary from the +5 Zevens but i don't have the faintest idea how they'd get the necessary great admiral, or where the money would come from to upgrade them in the numbers they're going to need. It'a really hard for me to see what civ could be paired with Sumeria that would stand a chance against Chev's 20 jongs on t100 besides, well, Norway... But I've been wrong before so maybe I'll be proved comprehensively wrong here as well - it certainly wouldn't be the first time

edit: ok if they swap to China and then snipe crusade from us, then I actually might be kinda annoyed but i guess if that means Vikings are off the board it's still not terrible for us...