yes - axe to BtB, chariot to scout the south trundra-y area.
Great turn report , Sullla, even if it was a "pretty quiet turn". When i saw the first line, i expected CivPlayers settled up on us too!
EDIT: ahh just saw the CFC settler -- wtf on that too...
That german city is astounding. what are they thinking?
--
Best dating advice on RB: When you can't hide your unit, go in fast and hard. -- Sullla
As previously said, thanks again Sullla for the great reports, can't wait to see them.
I also brought the topic of whipping GW in the diplo thread and will bring it again here. I got only responses that were vague enough along the lines of "huge penalty", "not worth" etc. At this point I think we want the wonder more than the fail gold, which is fine but I still think the wonder is better. If I recall correctly a wonder whip is 20H instead of 30H, but that's still fine with stone and OR, 45H... MM is size 6 not 10 so regrowth should not be that bad... Since I haven't looked very closely at the micro I don't strongly say we should do it, but that I'd like us to consider it more and not just dismiss the option on generalities.
Also, a reminder that afaik war elephants require HBR, so construction is not enough.
Apart from the 50% malus on whipping wonders, there is another factor to consider. The main draw of the GWall really isn't the effect here, but the GPP, to speed up our future golden age. But we will still have to supplant the wonders with the working specialists to hit a great person at circa T120. And by whipping the Great Wall we remove the very civizens we can use as specialists.
Ie, whipping the Great Wall is directly contra-indicated by our chosen goal.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
OK, so about the Great Wall in Mansa's Muse. I went ahead and wanted to check if we could land the Great Wall at the same date (eot 105) while trading away stone on the last turn of production, on Turn 105 itself. This is actually readily possible at minimal cost: we have to drop a grassland cottage for one turn and work a plains hill mine instead. But all city growths still occur and the wonder gets finished the same turn.
Short math: Mansa has 89/150 production into the wonder currently. The previous plan had us getting 15 production this turn, then 24 prod + 24 prod over the next two turns for a total of 152 production eot 105. Instead, we can get 24 production this turn, then again next turn (both turns with stone), then trade away stone and get 13 production on the final turn without stone. 89 + 24 + 24 + 13 = 150 exactly. No need for stone on T105, the last turn.
Tested in our sandbox and it all worked fine. No need to whip Mansa or anything like that. It costs us about 6 beakers and 2 food overall, which is fairly trivial. Hopefully our diplo team can make use of this information.
(February 18th, 2013, 10:25)NobleHelium Wrote: A Great Wall whip would cost twice as much as a regular whip, multiplicative with other modifiers.
Can you give me some numbers? I don't see how it is twice as much.
Kalin
The hammers gained per pop when whipping is actually defined individually for each possible build in the xml. For most wonders, including the GW, it's 15 base hammers per pop on normal speed. For most other builds it's 30 base hammers per pop.
Delving deeper into whip mechanics, on top of that you have the whip from scratch malus which applies to these numbers, that malus is -50% (or -33%, I'm a bit unsure). Finally you have the Kremlin bonus which is +50%. All these apply to the base hammer per pop number. I'm not sure what's applied first of the Kremlin bonus and the drywhip malus. EDIT: The Kremlin bonus applies first and cancels out the drywhip malus.
The normal production modifiers apply normally to the modified base hammers per pop numbers as calculated above. So a wonder whip will always be twice as costly as an equivalent normal whip, regardless of your production modifiers.
EDIT: More details after investigating:
The whip penalty is stored as a percentage cost modifier in C:\Program Files (x86)\...\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Buildings\CIV4BuildingInfos.xml in the tag <iHurryCostModifier>. So a iHurryCostModifier of 0 is normal cost, 100 is +100% cost or twice the cost, 300 is 4 times the cost.
The Great Wall does have a iHurryCostModifier of 100, so its whips are twice as expensive as normal whips. The national wonders generally have a cost modifier of 50, so each whip is worth 20 base hammers on those whips. Some modern wonders have +200% cost modifiers, so you only get 10 hammers per pop on those wonders. And three key wonders (the UN, the AP, and the Space Elevator) have +300% cost modifiers, giving a measly 7.5 base hammers per whipped population. (Cash rushing is probably the more common way of rushing these wonders, the same cost modifier applies there.)
The drywhip penalty is +50% cost, or -33% base hammers per pop, if you will. So each drywhipped pop on normal speed is worth 20 base hammers for normal whips.
The Kremlin bonus is -33% to the hurry cost, or +50% base hammers per pop, if you will. This applies before the drywhip penalty, so a drywhipped Kremlin pop yields as many base hammers as a normal whip (30), and a nondry Kremlin whip yields 45 base hammers.
(February 18th, 2013, 11:40)kalin Wrote: @Sullla: Thanks for looking into that. I think that's a worthwhile thing to do, regardless of what we do with CFC.
Agreed, let's do the suggested changes so that we have the option of gifting away the stone on T105.
