Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

That argument makes sense to me.  We're balancing for two power levels either way really, but for snakepick purposes, it's better to have e.g. the proposed Inca (which doesn't like Cre and renders Pro worthless, but is balanced with any other trait combinations) than to have an Inca that (like the old RtR's) that is balanced only without Pro and supercharged with it.  And that's also better than to have an Inca (like ToW's) that's balanced only with Exp and not worth playing without it.

(I don't have a strong opinion about Oromos; I just misunderstood the reason for choosing D2+D4 - thanks for explaining!)

On RPS, I think you underestimate the appeal of random selection when civs and traits are reasonably well-balanced, regardless of the size of the game, but it probably doesn't matter either way:  Whether or not the picking method is appropriate for a given game size, a standard list of civ/trait match-ups to never offer any player would presumably solve the problem.  My hope for a more elegant or in-game solution was probably silly, at least so long as any trait give a +100% build bonus to granaries and any civ has a granary UB.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the appeal of a reduced pick pool. Sometimes it is easier to not have to think so much. Sometimes you want a challenge. Fair enough, it's not wrong to want that. But the leaders and civs aren't that well balanced for all game types. If we ever play another game in the vein of PB18, PB27 or PB38, then it can work, yet I don't see it functioning great in a 5 player ancient game were one player roles Netherlands or Russia versus another player that gets Egypt or Inca.

I guess, though there's always going to be a tallest poppy (at least as long as mapmakers keep normalizing the map, and thus you rarely need to drastically adjust your evaluations).

The range matters, and it's now reasonably playable for all leaders minus IND, in most game types. Base BtS, compare FIN and EXP to PRO. Nothing compares to that in RtR.

[Krill]

So to restart, not much conversation occurred, but I'll just ditch the previous Ethiopia and put this up:

Ethiopia: Hunting/Mining. UB: Monument replacement. 1 Merchant slot; gives sentry to units built in this city. UU: Musket replacement. Oromo warrior. Starts with Drill 2 and Drill 4.

Same UU as suggested previously. The argument was it could be a nerf, compared to starting with D1, but D4 gives collateral immunity of 20%, 10% against mounted and 2 free strikes. Given that neither archery or melee units can take pinch without having Gunpowder already, the free strikes (3 in total) are more useful, in more situations IMO. Even though a drafted Oromo can't take shock or cover, it can still take C1, so it's -15% strength in a specific battle, but +2 free strikes, -1 free strike chance. I reckon this is a really good UU TBH.

The UB is a variation on what has been discussed previously. 2 merchants slots are too much, but a single merchant slot only really opens up 3 options: a rush to Metal Casting, which is comparable in timing to Oracle (as it takes PHI 15 turns to get there, 34 for none PHI), a GM bulb of Currency (no different to Sumeria which is accepted as OK) and a code of Laws bulb if Metal Casting is blocked (which can only occur by not having BW or Pottery. Anyone wants to try and make that work, be my guest. That's be ballsy. Other option is a cash bomb. Again, no different to Sumeria. The sentry is thrown on there for 2 reasons: 1, without it, I think this is a specific downgrade to Sumeria, and 2, it's early enough that you may build a scout or chariot that really benefits from it. Or even a galley. It's not really power, that is mostly flavour, but one that I think a lot of people will appreciate when used. Sentry is only available on recon (scout or explorer), mounted or naval units).

[Charriu]

Sentry on other units then Recon. I like it.

Also did you get the PM I send to you?

[pindicator]

I think that's solid. Sentry is an interesting addition, should be fun to play out

[Krill]

OK then, moving on. I'm going to speed things up a little because we are now reaching the end of the list for the relatively easy civs.

Portugal: Fishing/Mining. UB: Customs house replacement: Feitoria. Water tiles +1 commerce, cost 120. UU: Caravel replacement. Carrack. 4 movement, 2 transport capacity.

This is as it's played in PB42. I think it's fine. The privateers sits on top of the carrack, so the idea of just using carracks as cheap anti-galleon units doesn't really hold sway, as privateers beat the shit out of them, so the carrack is just a cheap unit carrier that costs the same per hammer for transport capacity, but costs more to maintain in gold. The Feitoria is no different than pure Ottawa porn (I'd link to a picture but those bastards at dropbox killed Commodore's links).

Dutch: Fishing/Agriculture. UB: Customs House replacement: Dike. +1 hammer from river tiles, +1 trade route. Cost 120. UU: Galleon replacement. Strength 6.

Hate me for it, but the Levee is too late given the decision that Russia is the civ furthest into the game, with the most power. The options are to either move the Dike forward, which brings the levee hammer bonus forward as well which has a massive distortion effect on hammers, or to rebuild the UB as the UU is actually functional now. So we have a point of reference in the UU. This seems reasonable to me, better than putting hammers on something that early in the game, but if people think that a Customs House that gives +1 hammer to sea tiles, and puts the civ in direct comparison to Portugal isn't too powerful, then we can go with that.

Holy Roman Empire: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Courthouse replacement: Rathaus. -75% city maintenance. UU: Longbow replacement. Landskneckt. +50% against Mounted units.

OK, this is a change: moving from a pike to a longbow UB (in all honesty, a part of the reason is I'm co-opting the pike for India), but this is just a giant "Fuck you I'm playing in my sandpit, now piss off" civ. Don't knight rush them, and don't even think of using HA, they all bounce. But other than that, it's just plain, simple, sit back, don't worry about costs or defense from a rush, just play civ civ. It's no different when defending from an SoD, or naval fights with maces coming off boats. It's just a straight forward civ you can pick and play. Is it interesting? It's nothing special, it's not Egypt, or Rome, or China. It's just something that any player, playing any leader, can pick and make work, and we need civs like that.

England: Fishing/Mining. UB: Bank replacement: Stock Exchange. +15% science. UU: Rifle replacement. +25% against gunpowder units, starts with Amphibious.

Compare this to Russia and tell me it's OP. Compare this to Vikings, and tell me it's OP. If England can get to naval dominance, which it has nothing to help it achieve, then the redcoat is there to help force a naval invasion. If England can't hold the sea, then it's just an ordinary red coat. And the SE is made useful at last.

[Charriu]

Portugal: Fishing/Mining. UB: Customs house replacement: Feitoria. Water tiles +1 commerce, cost 120. UU: Caravel replacement. Carrack. 4 movement, 2 transport capacity.

Go for it.

Dutch: Fishing/Agriculture. UB: Customs House replacement: Dike. +1 hammer from river tiles, +1 trade route. Cost 120. UU: Galleon replacement. Strength 6.

Hate me for it, but the Levee is too late given the decision that Russia is the civ furthest into the game, with the most power. The options are to either move the Dike forward, which brings the levee hammer bonus forward as well which has a massive distortion effect on hammers, or to rebuild the UB as the UU is actually functional now. So we have a point of reference in the UU. This seems reasonable to me, better than putting hammers on something that early in the game, but if people think that a Customs House that gives +1 hammer to sea tiles, and puts the civ in direct comparison to Portugal isn't too powerful, then we can go with that.

Two questions:

1. Is it +1 hammer on river or on sea tiles? Because you talk of both up there.
   
2. If it's on river tiles, then what about the levee? Will it be +2 hammer with both?
   

I really love the dike for it's uniqueness, but it comes sooooo late. Hard to hate you for that.

Holy Roman Empire: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Courthouse replacement: Rathaus. -75% city maintenance. UU: Longbow replacement. Landskneckt. +50% against Mounted units.

It's a longbow replacement, which we lack. I'm fine with it.

England: Fishing/Mining. UB: Bank replacement: Stock Exchange. +15% science. UU: Rifle replacement. +25% against gunpowder units, starts with Amphibious.

I think it's ok, but I find it a bit boring.

[Krill]

The Dike would give +1 hammer to river tiles, no effect to sea tiles.

[Charriu]

Ok so a Dike with a Levee would be +2 hammer to river tiles.

[Krill]

Yeah.

[Krill]

...bump...

Two month hiatus due to general business, I'll start putting a few more things up soon.

At some point this weekend I'll summarise everything posted so far here.