Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

Summary: This is what is "Agreed", this is what has been posted previously and no one has raised massive objections over:

Arabia: Mysticism/Agriculture. UB: Library replacement: Madrassa. 2 Priest slots, 4 culture, cost 70. UU: Knight replacement: Camel Archer. Does not require horse. Starts with March.

Aztecs: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Court house replacement: Sacrificial Alter. 50% anger duration after sacrificing population, requires Priesthood, cost 90. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Woodsman 2.

Babylon: Agriculture/The Wheel. UB: Granary replacement: Garden. Requires Agriculture, cost 45, +1 health, no bonus production from trait. UU: Archer replacement. +50% against melee, no free strike, starts with Drill 1 and 2.

Carthage: Fishing/Mining. UB: Harbour replacement: Cothon. +1 trade route. UU: Horse Archer replacement. Numidian Cavalry. +35% against melee, -35% against spearmen.

Celts: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Wall replacement: Dun. Free Guerrilla 2 promotion to units built in this city, no trait production modifier. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Guerilla 2.

China: Agriculture/Mining. UB: Theatre replacement: Pavilion. Available at Aesthetics. UU: Crossbow replacement. Causes Collateral Damage (max 60%), +2 free strikes.

Egypt: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Obelisk. +2 Priest slots. UU: Chariot replacement. War Chariot. Strength 5. -25% against archers. Flank attack against Catapults (3 units, max 100%).

England: Fishing/Mining. UB: Bank replacement: Stock Exchange. +15% science. UU: Rifle replacement. +25% against gunpowder units, starts with Amphibious.

Ethiopia: Hunting/Mining. UB: Monument replacement. 1 Merchant slot; gives sentry to units built in this city. UU: Musket replacement. Oromo warrior. Starts with Drill 2 and Drill 4.

France: Agriculture/The Wheel. UB: Observatory replacement: Salon. +1 free specialist. UU: Musket replacement. Musketeer. +1 movement point.

Greece: Hunting/Fishing. UB: building replacement: Odeon. +1XP to all land units in addition to base Colosseum XP, cost 60. UU: Axe replacement. Phalanx. +100% defence against chariots.

Holy Roman Empire: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Courthouse replacement: Rathaus. -75% city maintenance. UU: Longbow replacement. Landskneckt. +50% against Mounted units.

Inca: Agriculture/Mysticism. UB: Granary replacement: Terrace, +1 culture, cost 45 hammers, No trait production modifier. UU: Warrior replacement: Quechua. +100% against archery units.

Mali: The Wheel, Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Mint. +10% gold, +10% beakers. UU: Archer replacement. Skirmisher. Strength 4, -40% against archers.

Maya: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Colosseum replacement: Ball Court. +4 Happiness. UU: Spear replacement. Holkan. Strength 5.

Mongolia: Hunting/Wheel. UB: Stables replacement: Ger. +1 culture, +4XP to mounted units, requires Archery, +100% production with horse, no trait production modifier. UU: Horse Archer replacement. Keshik. +1 free strike. Ignores terrain movement costs.

Native America: Hunting/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Totem Pole. +3XP to Archery units. UU: scout replacement. Tracker. Starts with Woodsman 3, can create Totem Pole.

Netherlands: Fishing/Agriculture. UB: Customs House replacement: Dike. +1 hammer from river tiles, +1 trade route. Cost 120. UU: Galleon replacement. Strength 6.

Ottomans: Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Aqueduct replacement: Hammam. +2 happy, cost 80. UU: Musket replacement. Janissary. +25% against mounted, archery, melee units.

Portugal: Fishing/Mining. UB: Customs house replacement: Feitoria. Water tiles +1 commerce, cost 120. UU: Caravel replacement. Carrack. 4 movement, 2 transport capacity.

Russia: Hunting/Mining. UB: University replacement: Research Institute. Cost 120 hammers. Free Scientist. (Editor: may need to change to free specialist) UU: Cavalry replacement. +50% against Mounted units.

Sumeria: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Courthouse replacement: Ziggarut. Available at Writing. Cost 90. UU: axe replacement. Vulture. Strength 6. 25% bonus against melee. 5% bonus against axemen.

Vikings: Hunting/Fishing. UB: Lighthouse replacement: Trading Post. Builds water units +25% faster. UU: Maceman replacement: Berserker. Starts with Amphibious.

Zulu: Agri/Hunting. UB: Barracks replacement: Ikhanda: -20% city maintenance. +100% production with iron. No production modifier from trait. UU: Spear replacement: Impi: -40% against archers, 2 moves.

This leaves the following civs as undecided:

America:

Byzantium:

Germany:

India:

Japan:

Khmer:

Korea:

Persia:

Spain:

[Krill]

So it's been several months since this process started. This is a direct copy/paste from what I had as working ideas, but with my current thinking about the changes.

America: Agriculture/Fishing. UB: Barracks replacement: Armoury. +1XP to Gunpowder, +1XP to Mounted, +1XP to Armour, +2XP to Melee. UU: Musket replacement. Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1.

First thoughts: Might need tweaking to stop edge cases being too strong.

Reason: AGG leaders can build a 30 hammer barracks and reach CR2/C1 axes, which can beat an archer in a city way too easily. The archer needs to reach 140% of combat bonuses before it gets odds. Axes are also difficult to defend with, but realistically a capital defense with copper comes down to numbers, AGG America still needs to 2v1 against a 40% capital. I think making the Armoury not have the trait production bonus from AGG is enough to keep it reasonable. Other than this rush case, I still feel that CHM benefits more from this UB than AGG. The UU is just flavour but because of the UU, it is possible to draft G2 or W2 muskets, or really easily get to G3 for the retreat chance.

Germany: Hunting/Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Werkstatt. -25% city maintenance. UU: Grenadier replacement. Strosstrupper. Strength 14.

First thoughts: This opens up the forge/courthouse question and tech path questions.

Reasoning: The UU is comparable to the HRE Rathaus balance late game. The UU is just strength, plain and simple, but is not exactly different to a rifle rush without the economic bonuses and isn't draftable. It should not come significantly faster than a rifle rush IMO. Compared to the Russian Cossack, I don't think the UU trashes everything else, and the UB doesn't have the same power level compared to the Russian RI as it comes much sooner. I think it's a little bland, but generally seems interesting because of those tech path changes in the classical and late Ren eras. It will play similarly to a base civ, but at the same time it can lead to different decisions. Probably a sound civ TBH.

India: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Castle replacement: *Still needs naming*. +2 trade routes. UU: Pike replacement. *Still needs naming*. Strength 8.

First thoughts: The civ has to be rebuilt from the ground up so it has to be built around a central concept. That concept is Engineering over Guilds.

Reasoning: The fast worker is scrap. The UB is impossible to value because the base building is specific to WW, so the additional value gets garbled by that effect and becomes a bunch of statistics. So to rebuild the civ it needs a new concept, this is just one of a few that I worked with. Keep in mind that the workshop bonus is moved to Engineering from Guilds, and Engineering is dull for everyone else, but becomes a central point for India. Get Engineering, spam castles, use the obnoxious pikes to stop someone trying to take stuff from you with knights (and definitely HA) and gobble up the Ren era goodies with your free trade route commerce (which is one more trade route per castle than other players get). But with Corp being the obsoletion point for Castles, it keeps India from reaching for Inf and eventually that commerce boost times out. This bonus is also limited by the availability of good routes, spam "too many" castles and then cities will start reverting to your own trade routes.

Is it OP? I doubt it. It's blank until Engineering. The start techs probably need changing as well, but I moved them back to the original Indian start techs so it has one of the four main techs. Pikes aren't offensive (and maces have the city attack bonus anyway). You can bulb Engineering with a GE though, so theoretically you could get Engineering around the time other players were just pushing into the Medieval era but that doesn't help you conquer players. But it is a starting point for further discussion.

Japan: Fishing/Wheel. UB: Harbour replacement. *Need to choose a name*. +2XP for land units. UU: Maceman replacement. Samurai. Requires only Machinery.

First thoughts: Astro bulb uber alles.

Reasoning: Civil Service is needed for Maceman, but it also blocks the Astro bulb. Japan doesn't need anything except the tech path up to Astro to unlock all its goodies. But the Astro beeline requires you focus on boat production, and the UB is only buildable in coastal cities so you have to really question how and where you build units. The UU therefore lacks power, it is there only for flexibility, but the UB applies to ALL land units, like a barracks does, and it never obsoletes. 5XP land units without civics, 10XP melee/archery/siege units with both civics and a colloseum...but only from coastal cities that build an unusual building.

It's a militaristic version of Carthage, but Carthage always gets trade route bonus and a flexible unit that is the core of armies until knights. Again, might need tweaking, but I feel this is a good starting point.

Korea: Agriculture/Mining. UB: University replacement. Seowan: +40% research, cost 150. UU: Catapult replacement. Hwacha. Can kill.

First thoughts: catapults should never have lost the ability to kill.

Reasoning: It wasn't broken in the first place. The UB can be changed in value and output as players feel should see fit, but so long as the UU can kill and other cats can't, then the civ will be pickable, the UU won't be overpowered, and the UB can be tweaked to stop the civ being OP.

Spain: Mysticism/Fishing. UB: Castle Replacement. Citadel. +5XP to siege units. Free CR1 to units built in this city. UU. Cuirassier replacement. Conquestador. +50% against melee units.

First thoughts: I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

Reasoning: Castle UB that obsolete are always going to be built around windows of opportunity. Personally I'm not sure that Spain should keep a Castle UB, but here is an opportunity to rush to an item of infrastructure that gives an economic boost, and then also makes it possible to build units that can enable taking cities in the late Medieval to Ren eras.

I know, it's shit, I don't like it, but I don't see other ways to fix Spain short of a rebuild. This leaves Byzantium, Khmer, and Persia as well, so potentially 4 civs that need rebuilding.

[Charriu]

Great suggestions so far. My opinion about those:

America: I really like the armory. It feels good and I would definitely consider playing America with it. Yes the UU isn't that strong, but better than the Navy Seal from BTS.

Germany: The Werkstatt looks interesting. The only downside with the Werkstatt is that it's somewhat similar with HRE, which is a culturally very close civ to Germany. But this should not be a reason not to do this change.

India: My first thought was: Oh that UB would fit Spain very well. I have to say that in comparison to the current fast worker implementation, this new civ looks a more boring to me. I would not play it. Yes the trade route is nice, but the UU looks bland especially because it's use is more passive.

Japan: The harbor looks good. I hate to see the samurai without Drill or Free Strikes. Those made the UU really unique, but at the same time not to strong.

Korea: The UB is ok. About the UU. How would this "can kill" interact with the splash damage it provides. Can this damage kill too? Also what about the old melee bonus, but add a "target melee first" effect like the Khmer UU had. I could code it for you.

Spain: I like giving out CR1 to all kinds of units, but yeah the question is if it should stay with a castle. What other options do we have maybe a jail replacement that gives CR1?

[Krill]

Regarding India: I do not believe that this is where India would end up. I feel that this is a starting place for a discussion about what would make it both interesting to play, and strong enough to stand against other civs. I could not reasonably expect it to be perfectly balanced at first attempt, so I would aim for something that we feel is playable but slightly OP, and balance after a game has been played with it.

Japan: Giving Drill 2 to the Samurai is neither here nor there IMO. If people think that it rounds Japan out in terms of interestingness, that's fine.

Korea: Basically, the "Can kill" function is part of the units.xml,, and can be set to either "1" (like every standard unit) or "0", like current siege units. If it is set to 0, once a catapult has caused a unit that it is directly attacking to reach a certain %age health, then the catapult withdraws. The collateral damage is a completely different system, and is not affected by this proposed change. What this does is revert the H'wacha to the vanilla catapult standard where it was able to directly kill a unit it attacked, but the collateral damage is still capped at a set %age (for example, collateral damage can never bring a unit below 50% health). Everything else, including the melee bonus, is flavour and I have no issue with how the unit is constructed if this idea is accepted as a reasonable to rebalance the civ.

[superdeath]

Thoughts:

Byzantium- UU, Knight replacement- +50% attack vs mounted/melee/archery units? UB- Coliseum replacement- +2 extra exp to mounted units built in this city, +100% production with horse.

Khmer- UU, Elephant replacement- requires Ironworking + HBR? UB- aqueduct replacement- -20% maintenance.

Persia- UU Horse archer replacement- +50% withdrawal UB- Market replacement- +1 happy for gold/silver/gems.

[Krill]

I don't think that the knight UUs actually function anymore. It's too much power on the UU and it distorts the civ balance too much, so that's Byz that needs rebuilding. Khmer UU can work in the context of the next mod version, with ivory removed from WE requirements and needing HBR, IW and Construction, but the UB is the issue there. Persia is just straight up fucked with the blandest UB that exists and a UU that is inherently broken (because the unit it counters is the only available unit to defend with if rushed).

Anyway, here are some further ideas. Personally, I think this version of Spain is better than what is posted above:

Spain: Mysticism/Fishing. UB: Customs house Replacement. Citadel. -20% city maintenance. +2 culture +10% gold. UU. Cuirassier replacement. Conquestador. +50% against melee units. Can build Citadel.

Comparison is Russia: UU comes slightly earlier, UB slightly later. UB should save minimum 1.2g in a capital location (near FP), scaling up to 3-4gpt before the effects of inflation, but I think it needs a gold bonus to put it in the league with Russia. The UU isn't amazing, but it makes it easy to spam into every city by the mid Renaissance era including dropping it straight into new, distant cities where it would have a disproportionate effect. I would expect some serious thought into whether this is actually worth picking. I think there is definite room for buffing the UU.

Persia: Hunting/Agriculture. UB: Barracks replacement: *name*. +1 happy. UU: Maceman replacement. Immortal. +50% against mounted.

Bland but functional, and AGG has at least one barracks UU that it can build at half price. The UU is also difficult to dislodge, but it's a slowmover, so still dies to siege.

Khmer: Mining/Hunting. UB: Aqueduct replacement: Baray. +1 food, +1 culture. Cost 80. UU: War Elephant replacement. Ballistaphant (I don't know the actual name). Targets mounted first outside of cities. Can construct baray.

Boring UB but technical UU, and link them together. Bit more interesting.

Byzantium: Fishing/Mysticism. UB: Stables replacement. Hippodrome. +1 happy from iron, horse. UU: Knight replacement. Strength 10. +3 free strikes.

Most boring civ around, but at the same time, it gives access to happy and the cataphract stacks can more easily roll through cities if not countered by your own knights (which are immune to first strikes, but couldn't handle the higher strength unit.

All of these are very much subject for change, but as a starting point, worth considering IMO.

[Krill]

Looking back through that list of civs, one thing strikes me as different: China, despite being one of the "Baseline" civ, seems to me to be "Too strong". Only, it's not that China is too strong. To me it feels that China, or more specifically the Cho-Ko-Nu is right, and it's the base crossbowman that is wrong.

Probably because the CKN was originally designed in a time when there was other collateral available off boats, but since then siege units lost the ability to attack without landing first. It makes me wonder if that's actually still fair.

[Charriu]

Spain: Mysticism/Fishing. UB: Customs house Replacement. Citadel. -20% city maintenance. +2 culture +10% gold. UU. Cuirassier replacement. Conquestador. +50% against melee units. Can build Citadel.

I like the direction this is going. The maintenance/gold bonus isn't anything spectacularly new by now, but it works. What intrigued me more is the culture bonus. At first I thought, oh great now I can conquer cities and immediately build a culture building there. But then I realized that in order to build a customs house the city first needs a harbor, correct? What's your comment about the building requirements?

Persia: Hunting/Agriculture. UB: Barracks replacement: *name*. +1 happy. UU: Maceman replacement. Immortal. +50% against mounted.

I agree it's bland. Maybe to spice things up a little bit and make it unique you could do the following:

• Add a tiny healing rate (5%) to the UB. In that case it could stay the Apothecary.
  
• Make the happiness bonus dependent on some resource.
  
• Or add any yield value on the city tile itself via the YieldChanges flag (like the Palace, which gives an amount of commerce)
  

Khmer: Mining/Hunting. UB: Aqueduct replacement: Baray. +1 food, +1 culture. Cost 80. UU: War Elephant replacement. Ballistaphant (I don't know the actual name). Targets mounted first outside of cities. Can construct baray.

We already discussed that some pages ago. I still like it.

Byzantium: Fishing/Mysticism. UB: Stables replacement. Hippodrome. +1 happy from iron, horse. UU: Knight replacement. Strength 10. +3 free strikes.

I like replacing the stable as it fits with the unique unit. UU looks ok for me.

Looking back through that list of civs, one thing strikes me as different: China, despite being one of the "Baseline" civ, seems to me to be "Too strong". Only, it's not that China is too strong. To me it feels that China, or more specifically the Cho-Ko-Nu is right, and it's the base crossbowman that is wrong.

Probably because the CKN was originally designed in a time when there was other collateral available off boats, but since then siege units lost the ability to attack without landing first. It makes me wonder if that's actually still fair.

I see some work in the DLL for me.

[Krill]

Persia and Byz are, in my opinion, completely open to redesign. I don't particularly care so long as they fit in with the other civs.

Spain, I forgot about the harbour myself. My original thoughts are that it should just be dumped into coastal cities as needed, so I would ask you to consider that as the original suggestion.

China, I wonder if the Xbow should be a weaker CKN.

[superdeath]

Persia- UB as a stables replacement that allows them to build their UU? And make their UU a 7str HA? ( idk how to code that.. make the UU cost 15k hammers, but have the stables UB reduce the cost?

BYZ- i like the original UB. UU ( im really wanting a UU settler.. ) but that knight with +3 first strikes, but also make it have no horse/iron ect requirements?

China- Change the UU to a catapult that can kill. ( cant collateral off boats )