RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[MWIN]

This works only when we have a common enemy, AI.

What happened to civility in the RB community ?

Darrell

[Serdoa]

@Krill, I think players are not sharing the same enthusiasm as lurkers. If Nakor doesn’t understand the rule breaking then make him understand. But after that, it should be his decision….

Also, did anybody notice, all dispute in this game so far involved Spullla. There were wars that did not involve Spullla and all of them played in a reasonable spirit.

MWIN, I do not want to say that Spullla did not try to take every advantage they could but in my opinion what you wrote implies that Spullla is the reason for that what might be a little bit unfair. Yes the disputes involved always Spullla. But if I remember correctly many of them were stirred up by lurkers finding out that they did not obey to the rules - most of the time only because Spullla themselves did post very openly in their thread what they were doing.

Now, is it possible that in the other wars something was not done like it should have been by the rules? Maybe, though none of the players does even write remotely as accurate reports as Spullla are doing so lurkers do not have a chance to catch them. For example I do not have a clue what happened in the slaze-athlete wars.

I do not want to say that the lurkers should not mention if they find something, but I think it is kind of obvious that Spullla is involved in all disputes because they are one of the few (if not the only ones) reporting extensively and therefore one of the few were we lurkers are able to catch those "errors".

[dazedroyalty]

I think Serdoa is exactly right. I think part of Speaker and Sullla's frustration is that they clearly are doing the most work reporting and the fact is that if they put in less effort, there wouldn't be any complaints about their rule breaking.

I'm not saying that a rule wasn't broken. However, I am thinking that the community that thrives on full and detailed reporting should be careful that implementation of rules does not, in effect, discourage players from full reporting. To that end, I am personally of the opinion that lurkers should NOT be a part of rule enforcement. Otherwise we create a situation that discourages the very thing we want to encourage.

While I'm posting, Speaker's attitude towards Krill has definitely been innappropriate. However, I also think that Krill has assumed more authority than he necessarily needs to. He was originally called in to make a decision regarding a dispute that the players needed settled. It was not clearly dictated what the continuing role of a "admin" would be. Based on the original need, though, it would seem the game admin should be the person to step in and settle conflict when it arises--not the person who is actively policing the game. That is what the players should be doing for themselves.

[Bobchillingworth]

I still don't understand why we are forced to have this discussion. HRE's "gg" e-mail should have put the fork in this thing a long time ago, I don't get why India hasn't responded to it...

Darrell

I suggested in this thread letting HRE know that India was amenable to ending the game a few days ago. I have no idea why India has neglected to respond back to the HRE, but their lack of an affirmative response seems to be the only thing keeping the game running. Given that no one seems to be really enjoying the game anymore and that India has won this game beyond all possible doubt, I think that helping put this game to rest would be a mercy.

[sunrise089]

I wish I knew (is it in the thread?) the number of units India had unmoved in their stack and the number of units Mali killed.

Hypothetical 1: India has 15 units left, there are 20 redlined defenders - Mali's attack on the city is critical, without it India wouldn't have anything left to kill the stack of cannons behind the city.

Hypothetical 2: India had 30 units left, 10 redlined defenders - Mali's actions weren't vital to the outcome, though they were still against the rules. Not sure why Mali would have even been involved though...

[MWIN]

You are correct. I never said I am impartial. It is just Sullla should have been more acknowledging of their errors, rather than opposing any thing that they don't like.

Other than finding faults Spullla’s game and bashing them because of it, I think most of my other posts are of softer tone. What is the fun in it, if everybody supports Spullla….

I think Serdoa is exactly right.

Agree.

To that end, I am personally of the opinion that lurkers should NOT be a part of rule enforcement. Otherwise we create a situation that discourages the very thing we want to encourage.

The only thing I want to add is that, rule breakings do happen. Ratherthan making a decision as a game admin, Krill should try and explain the situation to both players and let them decide.

While I'm posting, Speaker's attitude towards Krill has definitely been innappropriate. However, I also think that Krill has assumed more authority than he necessarily needs to. He was originally called in to make a decision regarding a dispute that the players needed settled. It was not clearly dictated what the continuing role of a "admin" would be. Based on the original need, though, it would seem the game admin should be the person to step in and settle conflict when it arises--not the person who is actively policing the game. That is what the players should be doing for themselves.

[Serdoa]

sunrise, I've gone trough their thread and tried to find out what the current situation was:

they had at least 22 units available (maybe more, he is showing a stack of 21 which is 2N,3W of Gao + at least one which stands north of Gao) which could reach Gao by turn 226 (from their thread that is the turn the rule-break happened).

Nakor did have 20 units (13 in the city + 6 cannons and a rifle E,SE of Gao).

The pictures indicate that except for 4 cavs all unit standing 2N,3W had their full movement available at turn 225, including 11 cavs.

He posted that he needed 4 cavs to kill the 6 cannons and 1 rifle. He also killed 13 defenders in the city. Counting that together he need 4+13+1 (he lost one battle) = 18

There is one redlined defender in the city left, would make 19 - he had 22, that means they had sufficient force to take the city and kill the cannons on their own.

So only one question remains: Could they reach the cannons without borders popped? Yes they could - they had on turn 225 11 cavs with enough movement to reach 1N of Gao. The cannons are located E, SE of Gao and E of Gao is flatland. With there 2 movers they would be able to kill the stack even without popped borders.

Only question remaining which cannot be answered: Would Nakor be able (and willing) to raze the city if Dantski is not allowed to get defenders in? Though as Spullla did lose only one attacker, they still could at least put around 7 cavs in the city.

And please keep in mind, that is only from their pics. I am not sure if they did not even have more cavs then indicated by the pics (possible, because they talk about 20 I think).

[Serdoa]

Oh, and one other minor detail I found at the time I tried to get the above infos extracted from their thread. The reason the game is still ongoing (and they probably have not answered Nakor):

Korea and Inca haven't shown any great desire to throw in the towel, so for the moment at least, we're going to continue playing our turns as usual

[Shoot the Moon]

Also, did anybody notice, all dispute in this game so far involved Spullla. There were wars that did not involve Spullla and all of them played in a reasonable spirit.

There was quite the rules debate in the Ottoman-Byzantine war, so I don't think it's fair to say all the other wars.

[darrelljs]

My offer to arbiter isn't restricted to this one incident; it's the same deal as the Poly demogame: every team needs to agree to me being game arbiter, and agree that all rulings are binding. The only aim I would have is to keep this game running and everyone happy.

EDIT: well, maybe not happy, but not thoroughly ****ed off.

This is what everyone voted on. The title "arbiter" implies Krill should only step in when disputes happen. That said, there have been requests from multiple players (including Sulla) to check lurker threads for possible rules breaking. I think Jabah did the right thing and Krill was obligated to act on it. It might have been better to first inform HRE as the aggrieved party what happened and ask them what they felt was best for the game. Nakor seems pretty mellow, I doubt he'd ask for a reload given the time that has passed.

Darrell