[PB61 - Spoiler] bell's uncreatively named spoiler thread

[bellarch]

Under new reply, hit add image and put the direct link from imgur in there to show pictures. Although for multiple sim ones like this it is fine how you did.

Thoughts: -Disclaimer - you can choose not to listen to me and just play what you think is fun!

I tried the direct link thing first, but it didn't work. Maybe because I don't have enough posts yet?

Also, please feel free to hit me with more thoughts; as you can probably see I don't really know what I'm doing so more ideas and input is always helpful!

-While the normal thing with Imp India is to do two workers into chop a settler, with 3 food resources all pretty easily improvable early I think I would be interested in trying 1 worker grow to size 3. 2 settlers 2 workers by turn 30 sounds fantastic though. 1st ring deer is such a speed up. I am glad to see you microing. I do not have time to even do beginning like I did for Amica (for which I'm a little sorry, maybe I'll take a crack before major decisions). I like doing saves at decision pts to speed up the process. Some people also just use spreadsheets, but I don't have one made.
-No fishing needed and England is a late game sim on an average size map. Any fishing civ would probably have to be pretty good early (like Rome, although not aggressive this big would still be ok taking).
-If you are feeling agro this wouldn't be a bad Egypt start. Main downside is no early chopping and whipping. Main upside   .

 Especially since I think Tarkeel said that the map probably won't be ready until Wednesday at the earliest, I'm planning on spending a decent chunk of time this weekend swimming. Feel free to feed me more ideas! I'll get a spreadsheet together at some point so you can at least take a look at what I'm doing.

England was more of me wanting to test a civ with mining but without fast workers; I don't think I'd pick them. In this situation I'd maybe even lean toward Russia over England solely because Hunting/Mining are probably the best starting techs for this particular start, though I honestly don't think it matters that much from my simming. I'll think more on that this weekend, I suppose. I will say that I'm not feeling super aggro so I probably won't take Egypt? Though a small part of me is starting to think about Rome . . .

-I'm not a fan of Cathy on this big of map because she got nothing after early game. You basically should be attacking someone as fast as possible because all your early game advantages go pretty fast. I think I'm a Cathy fan at like 100 tiles per or less.
-I'm not a big fan of protective as stated (would rather do something well than 2 things meh). I will say I think its better on higher difficulties for not crashing early. 
-If you want a later game trait I would choose either financial or organized. Both have their advantages. Let me know if you want me to discuss more (basically org is early no work savings and hammer discounts which help build more stuff and speed up vs financial late game building modifiers). I do recommend one of the two.
-With this busted of a capital it is possible Imperialistic isn't needed. PB55 we used charismatic in a situation like this to basically overclock whipping. However, I understand the desire to go fast early! Also I believe PB55 was a bigger map.
-If you really like creative again map size and type might benefit from. I will say a lot of the capital food looks pretty sharable which might decrease how much it matters from a speed standpoint.

I'm also leaning away from creative after thinking about it more, tbh. The other thing that might matter is that we could end up being one of only a few civs with Mysticism to start? That potentially puts us in a good position to grab a religion for early border pops. I'm not sure if that's actually the best move here, but it's another option. 

I definitely wouldn't mind discussing more about traits. After simming I definitely can see why Imperialistic might not be as necessary with this specific capital, though by default I'm still leaning towards it. I am also thinking that one of financial or organized will be very helpful for econ purposes.

- We can discuss more as we see more picks, but If you are really feeling India I am not going to be the ded lurker to talk you out of it and I would 100% keep as 1st pick regardless. If India gets taken I would take preferred leader because I just don't think Inca is getting taken (ie you'll have descent options).

-1st city is likely going to share deer and be along river south for trade routes. Scout to cow and then down in that area first (just stating while thinking about). This obviously might change micro (ie should workers be south to improve that city, are you stealing the deer). Pre game micro is more just "ok lets check to make sure this civ works for the start" not here is the final and spend a ton of time on.
-The fact we aren't near coast is interesting in and of itself. Also, while thinking about one of the earlier cities (2-4) should go on coast to then build a galley to then get an island city for trade routes with sailing.
-I also wonder if its a PB51 situation where everyone starts inland or if its more old school random how you start like PB55 (which was busted due to how circumnavigation worked in that mod, but don't worry about that here).
-Might be worth noting how many fishing civs get taken because it could mean we might have more neighbors than others which might affect choices. 7 people does not divide well for neighbors unless its just kind of a circle blob pangea and then I would expect everyone to mirrored ish

I think we're more or less on the same page about picks at this point, at least given what information we have. (I'll post a pick order below, maybe?) 

Scouting advice is super helpful btw. I'm definitely thinking that we're going to be sharing food between cities; the multiple food resources at the capital makes me think that the map is going to be balanced around that.

My hunch is that we have mostly mirrored starts - the early Khmer pick was kind of surprising to me, but it makes sense in part because they start with Hunting and Mining, and those are arguably the best starting techs for our start. Which suggests to me that our starts are very similar if not identical.

[Mjmd]

Leader and civ pick order = yes please

I wanted to throw out a civ we haven't discussed. I was trying to think of other civs that might be advantaged from not needing fishing right away.

Mali. Starting techs of Wheel / Mining seem good here. Research hunting and then BW > Agr (or agr >BW) No one has picked Mali in forever and their UB is VERY GOOD especially with financial. Their UU is fine but again I avoid archery a bit. If India is taken my picks would be one of Mali, Rome, or Inca.

[bellarch]

Leader and civ pick order = yes please

I wanted to throw out a civ we haven't discussed. I was trying to think of other civs that might be advantaged from not needing fishing right away.

Mali. Starting techs of Wheel / Mining seem good here. Research hunting and then BW > Agr (or agr >BW) No one has picked Mali in forever and their UB is VERY GOOD especially with financial. Their UU is fine but again I avoid archery a bit. If India is taken my picks would be one of Mali, Rome, or Inca.

Once again we appear to be thinking along similar lines! Mali was another civ that seemed like it might be a good pick, but I wasn't sure. That definitely goes on my list.

Okay, so here's the list. Let's assume that India is our #1 overall pick, since I think we still agree on that?

Leaders

1. Victoria - FIN/IMP
2. J. Caesar - IMP/ORG
3. Hannibal - CHA/FIN
4. Napoleon - CHA/ORG
-- (I'm less sure here, and also I kind of doubt we'll get this far - that only happens if someone doesn't pick India)
5. Willem - CRE/FIN
6. Zara - CRE/ORG

Thought process goes like this: we want a leader with FIN or ORG for econ. We'd like to pair that with a trait that gives some sort of bonus to early production for the sake of development. The obvious choice for that is Imperialistic. Failing that, Charismatic enables whipping strategies, so that's second. I'm less sure what comes next, so I defaulted to Creative as a general-purpose early development trait, but I can be easily convinced to do something else here. If we decide that Mali looks like a good civ option, then Industrious may be useful for the cheap mints (which would mean FIN/IND Huayna or IND/ORG Roosevelt is the pick, I think, probably as 3 and 4?).

Civs

1. India - Fast Worker/Mausoleum, Mysticism/Mining
2. Inca - Quechua/Terrace, Agriculture/Mysticism
3. Rome - Praetorian/Forum, Fishing/Mining
4. Mali - Skirmisher/Mint, Wheel/Mining
-- (filling out the list here; I highly doubt we'll get this low. This requires that 4/5 or 5/5 other people pick civs before leaders and that they pick every civ on this list.)
5. Sumeria - Vulture/Ziggurat, Wheel/Agriculture
6. Ottomans - Jannisary/Hammam, Wheel/Agriculture
also considered: China, Egypt, England, Ethiopia, Maya, Russia

Thought process goes like this: we want a civ that will help with early development. India is the obvious choice here for the fast workers. Inca is next because of the Terrace, and a bit because Quechuas are surprisingly useful against barbs. Rome comes after that because the Praetorian (a) opens the option of early aggression (b) should at least ensure that no one wants to attack us in the classical era, I'm assuming? Mali is next; I could see it being even higher, but the Mint is relatively expensive and I also tend to delay Archery a bit. After that comes the options that I'm unsure of, but I also highly doubt we'll actually have to resort to. Sumeria is next on the list because it's the only other (available) civ I see with a particularly helpful building for early development that I see - the Ziggurat is a cheap, earlier courthouse and that seems potentially useful. This is a new addition to the list and I'm less sure about it, but then again I'm not expecting to reach that portion of the list anyway. The Ottomans are there for similar reasons - the Hammam is early and provides +2 happy - though I'd imagine that we're already running HR by the time we get it. Of the civs I also listed as options, they're on there as because of starting techs (China, Russia, Ethiopia), earlyish-game unique bonuses (Maya, Egypt), or as general power options (China, England, Russia). Again, while I'm unsure about these, I highly doubt we're going to need to pick beyond India/Inca/Rome/Mali anyway.

Edit: I'm assuming the pick order is India/Leader/Non-Indian Civ

[Mjmd]

Inca is next because of the Terrace, and a bit because Quechuas are surprisingly useful against barbs. Rome comes after that because the Praetorian (a) opens the option of early aggression (b) should at least ensure that no one wants to attack us in the classical era, I'm assuming? Mali is next; I could see it being even higher, but the Mint is relatively expensive and I also tend to delay Archery a bit.

Edit: I'm assuming the pick order is India/Leader/Non-Indian Civ

I like the pick order.

I will say Rome is probably better than Inca (even non aggressive for reasons you described), but no one has played a longer game with Inca since the change. I think 45 hammer grans are great. 1 pop whip, overflow something into chop. Just a lot more micro things to get them up pronto. Inca is def faster and you make a good point about barbs although I would hope we would have real units out by then, but you never know when they will pop up in the 1 possible tile to threaten a back line city.

Even not being Ind forges are a building that get built everywhere. Also since Metal Casting is a cheaper tech its not Oracle or bust anymore to get them going right after currency. If it was a LARGE map I would be tempted by Fin/Ind or Org/Ind.

To note charismatic is super nice in multiplayer for things like 5 move galleys (per se) or eventually getting to commando cav, so I do like it over creative along with this amount of food for whipping. The one thing I will say is that if you end up with Rome I would probably pick creative over it so you can just avoid mysticism early. Again if India isn't picked I think Inca is a lock.

[bellarch]

I like the pick order.

I will say Rome is probably better than Inca (even non aggressive for reasons you described), but no one has played a longer game with Inca since the change. I think 45 hammer grans are great. 1 pop whip, overflow something into chop. Just a lot more micro things to get them up pronto. Inca is def faster and you make a good point about barbs although I would hope we would have real units out by then, but you never know when they will pop up in the 1 possible tile to threaten a back line city.

Even not being Ind forges are a building that get built everywhere. Also since Metal Casting is a cheaper tech its not Oracle or bust anymore to get them going right after currency. If it was a LARGE map I would be tempted by Fin/Ind or Org/Ind.

To note charismatic is super nice in multiplayer for things like 5 move galleys (per se) or eventually getting to commando cav, so I do like it over creative along with this amount of food for whipping. The one thing I will say is that if you end up with Rome I would probably pick creative over it so you can just avoid mysticism early. Again if India isn't picked I think Inca is a lock.

Great! I'll certainly think about Rome over Inca, though I feel comfortable picking either and I think they're both good. An additional point about the Quechua btw - if it hasn't changed since vanilla BTS, the Quechua is buildable even after you can build axes/spears/swords unlike regular warriors, which means you can spam them for cheap happy under HR. Obviously we'd prefer to build real units if we have the production, but they can also be used for HR purposes in a pinch.

One thing I will note re: picking Rome is that if we pick the leader before the civ, as planned, we'll have to choose between Creative and Charismatic before we get our civ choice. On the other hand, by the time we pick there is literally only one person who can mess up our plans so I don't feel nervous. (note: this is potentially an argument for picking civ before leader if we hit on Rome as civ pick #2, or if for some unfathomable reason India and Inca are both picked before we get a chance).

EDIT: Catherine's now off the board; things are still looking good so far!

[Charriu]

An additional point about the Quechua btw - if it hasn't changed since vanilla BTS, the Quechua is buildable even after you can build axes/spears/swords unlike regular warriors

This is still true.

[Mjmd]

Cathy and Cyrus - map size matters people! 120 is average not small or tiny! I still think taking an India and Imp leader makes sense and we are locked get at least India or one of the two imp leaders we want.

Choose what you think you'll have fun with. One of the reasons I keep choosing India is they make micro fun!

[bellarch]

Cathy and Cyrus - map size matters people! 120 is average not small or tiny! I still think taking an India and Imp leader makes sense and we are locked get at least India or one of the two imp leaders we want.

Choose what you think you'll have fun with. One of the reasons I keep choosing India is they make micro fun!

Sure thing! India has just fallen, but given that we're getting a top two leader pick I don't feel too bad about it.

[Mjmd]

The sad thing is I looked at the tech thread first, but my bleary eyes were like NOPE.

[bellarch]

So here's a spreadsheet with an initial sim of the start as Inca. I'm about to be busy for a while, but I figured I'd post this before I go get involved in things.
Most of this looks pretty standard - I am doing something experimental at the end, though, going for Meditation + Stonehenge. On second thought this probably isn't the best plan because India also starts with Mysticism and they have a better chance at pulling off this play, but it's an option. The better research plan is probably Wheel or possibly Poly after BW.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...edit#gid=0

Edit: I've made editing public; feel free to adjust formatting (or suggest formatting changes) to make it easier to read!