Exploits

[novice]

Not exactly an exploit, but building the same (national) wonder in multiple cities, for extra failgold, is also worth banning, IMO. Up to the players, ultimately, but I would include a ban in any new games I were to set up.

[TheMeInTeam]

Not exactly an exploit, but building the same (national) wonder in multiple cities, for extra failgold, is also worth banning, IMO. Up to the players, ultimately, but I would include a ban in any new games I were to set up.

This I disagree on strongly.

The reason wealth/gold + hammers is a bad thing is that it produces extra output without additional input, and works against defined in-game rules.

Wonder fail gold does neither of those things. Not only that, national wonder fail gold has an opportunity cost, which can be anything from "wealth right now" to "long term infrastructure" to "military survival"...not to mention delaying the effects of said national wonder...which means you're either a) delaying a good NW or b) building one that otherwise isn't very good.

Considering hammer decay and need for tech "right now", use of fail gold carries some actual strategic weight, unlike abusing the prod auto glitch. You can't compare intended features to a glitch!

[mackoti]

Failing gold its just worth until 1 ad,and to get it you have to plan ahead becasue afetr 50 turns decay start, and in my opinion you have to think twice to do that(building wonders for fail gold) As TMIT said perhaps you lose more.

[sunrise089]

Strongly disagree with deliberate fail gold banning. Huge opportunity cost there.

[novice]

You can't compare intended features to a glitch!

I doubt that the ability to move wonders in and out of build queues and get fail gold even if you're the one completing the wonder is an intended feature. If it were, why can't you have a wonder in multiple build queues at once?

The main issue as compared to wealth is that you get much better multipliers on your hammers.

[sunrise089]

I doubt that the ability to move wonders in and out of build queues and get fail gold even if you're the one completing the wonder is an intended feature. If it were, why can't you have a wonder in multiple build queues at once?

The main issue as compared to wealth is that you get much better multipliers on your hammers.

Um...because you change your mind where you're building it?

[TheMeInTeam]

I doubt that the ability to move wonders in and out of build queues and get fail gold even if you're the one completing the wonder is an intended feature. If it were, why can't you have a wonder in multiple build queues at once?

The main issue as compared to wealth is that you get much better multipliers on your hammers.

Much better multipliers, with some caveats:

- You need to be IND (for 50%) or have the resource (100%), something that isn't consistently true. It's a flat-out bad idea without at least one of these things.
- The multipliers are discounted because they are not immediate returns, but rather returns at a future date. In civ where the effects of having something now snowballs, you can't hand-wave that.
- The techs needed for many of these require you to often deviate from what would otherwise be optimal
- Only a few national wonders are unconditionally available without heavy infra investment, making the potential returns from the tactic finite
- Doing this tactic can put players at considerable risk, for there is a window where their investment has done absolutely nothing for them yet.

[Krill]

It also works when you have OR, and is one of the few methods of still turning forests into gold.

However, I wouldn't deign to say that any tech path is optimal when it comes to MP. Too much depends on the other players. I also would disagree with the claim that building a NW with multipliers is worse than building wealth, particularly because you are running a binary slider. You don't need the gold until you would have to stop teching, which means that you wouldn't need the gold for several turns after restarting teching ie Wealth might give you gold now, but you might not need that gold for a dozen turns or more.

[novice]

Um...because you change your mind where you're building it?

In which case you should eat the loss. Anyway, just airing my personal opinion here.

[TheMeInTeam]

It also works when you have OR, and is one of the few methods of still turning forests into gold.

However, I wouldn't deign to say that any tech path is optimal when it comes to MP. Too much depends on the other players. I also would disagree with the claim that building a NW with multipliers is worse than building wealth, particularly because you are running a binary slider. You don't need the gold until you would have to stop teching, which means that you wouldn't need the gold for several turns after restarting teching ie Wealth might give you gold now, but you might not need that gold for a dozen turns or more.

Simply put, doing this can and often will still track you off of techs you'd have otherwise researched first. OR bonus I did forget .

True too with binary research, assuming you're in a wealth accumulation phase.

Regardless, while this can be an effective tactic it is certainly not the consistently best option, which makes it dubious to ban. By contrast, governor double output is strong enough that if it were specifically allowed, pretty much every team would use it (and have to use it to be competitive) as teams that did so would wind up very very far ahead.