[Spoiler] Suboptimal's Next Attempt at Lurker Frustration

[suboptimal]

The intent would be to go for the heroic age for the Medieval. That way we'd get ~40 turns running Free Inquiry ( from Comm Hubs and Campus), Pen Brush & Voice (+1 from each specialty district) and Monumentality at the same time. I guess the converse of your question would be "is the potential benefit of running three golden age dedications from T101 to T140 worth it vs. what it takes to get the initial dark age?"

Another question to ask is does the handicaps of a dark age cause us any major problems? Likewise, can a dark age be gotten without falling behind too much? For the policies I think Twilight Valor might have some use if we go after a city-state or two. Isolationism could also be usable but it would require careful planning around settler builds. However, there are likely other more useful cards that we'd be using regularly so I don't know if they'd be slotted.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

My experience in the MP games that I've played, at least with the civs that I've played, is that getting the era points for a golden age in the Classical can be a challenge unless you make it the main focus of the Ancient Era.  It does seem that the era points in the Classical Age come fast and furious and it's not too difficult to get enough for a Golden Age at Turn 101.  One thing we haven't seen yet (AFAIK) is someone going Classical Dark to Medieval Heroic.  I look at my experience playing Indonesia in PBEM 14 - it was all I could do to get a Classical Golden Age but the key there was that I was generating a pile of faith from the civ ability.  I should look at the SoT61 save of PBEM 17 to see who in the other place got what ages.  

My few SP test starts with Eleanor/England have had me teetering on a dark Classical but usually enough era points show up in the T50-T60 window to avoid it.  Ironically it's usually the completion of Political Philosophy and the adoption of a Tier 1 government that pushes me out of a dark age.  

Monumentality is most useful, I think, if you have the faith income to make unit purchases and get it in the Classical.  In the Medieval for MP I think I'd rather have Free Inquiry during a golden age, particularly if I've got a few harbors up.  

I think this, then, leads to an interesting question - do we want to intentionally attempt a Classical dark age with the intent of going for a Heroic medieval?  We'd have to pick and choose what era points are unavoidable and which we can reasonably avoid.  One way to do it might be avoid build-based era points (high adjacency districts, unique district, first naval unit, etc) buy building them all to one turn from completion during the Ancient and then finishing them all on Turn 61.  Completing a 4+ adjacency RND and a 3+ adjacency Campus is 10 era points.  

That's also a good example of the difficulties of getting a dark age.  "Typically" you're likely to build a 3+ adjacency Campus because it's efficient (high science) and is the "usual" path to getting an early district down for the State Workforce inspiration.  However, that's 3/11 era points to "avoid" a dark age.  In thinking about it, though, we might want to go Encampment first because it gets us two inspirations (State Workforce and Military Training) and we're going to want a few Encampments for the added production and resource storage from the buildings as well as building military engineers.  

So...this leads to the first question for "the committee" - do we think that a dark Classical to heroic Medieval game is feasible in MP and is it something we want to try?

It's absolutely achievable - I did exactly this in PBEM12. It worked really well on an island map, and I was able to slingshot to a heroic age that supercharged my civ. I had a couple of advantages:

1)We were playing on an island map. Loyalty pressure was never relevant at all, and I was mostly safe through the classical age from attack. Loyalty shouldn't be an issue on pangaea either, but you might be militarily vulnerable for a bit. On the other hand, there are no real dangerous Ancient Era warring civs. 

2)I was playing Arabia and had lots of Holy Sites. That kept me competitive with the Dark Age policy Monasticism, which doubled my science in cities iwth holy sites. I could probably have done even more with proper planning! 

3)The end of the slingshot let me take 3 dedications, so monumentality, free inquiry, and pen, brush and voice catapulted me to the front of the yield train, while still letting me faith purchase settlers and builders. 

I see lots of ways to improve on my PBEM12 game (which was R&F, not GS), too, looking back. I really could have min/maxed harder.

[Thrantar]

Okay, so there are three basic drawbacks to being in a dark age, which I'll address in turn:

1) You haven't done the things that would get you era points.
This is definitely relevant. As stated earlier, building unique districts, high adjacency districts, meeting civs, destroying barbarian encampments, etc. are all good things, and, to certain degree, inevitable. There is some amount of prebuilding that can be done, especially with districts, to minimize the time spent not benefiting, but you're still a bit behind the curve if you put stuff off.

2) You lack a normal age dedication for bonus era score.
While this is true, dark ages, if I'm reading correctly, innately make the next golden age 5 era score cheaper. I'm not convinced that you'd be getting much more than from the normal dedication bonus in any case. Also, with a Unique Harbor district and associated naval milestones, England should have the generation to engineer a Medieval Heroic age.

3) You have only half the normal loyalty pressure.
I really don't know how to judge this? Loyalty is just not an issue I've run into.

However, being in a dark age also has intrinsic advantages in the form of dark age policies, several of which we can potentially benefit from:

1) Isolationism
England's got a unique harbor, and harbors are a solid source of trade routes. Further, it looks like the drawback can potentially be worked around via civic swaps. For instance, swap out of Isolationism for a turn, chop a settler with Magnus, Colonization, and/or at an Ancestral Hall, swap back in Isolationism during travel, then swap back to found.

2) Twilight Valor
Not generally a good choice, but handy if we need it. Also, the threat of it is probably important as a way to deter aggression. Further, Valor + Oligarchy might help in bowling over an early city state.

[suboptimal]

Regarding #2, you still get a dedication in a Dark Age - it has the same effects as a Normal Age dedication. I believe the era point thresholds for both the next normal and golden ages are decreased but I haven't been able to find any information about how large that decrease is. I think the bigger problem is going to be avoiding a normal age if we're trying. It's just too easy to get past 11 era points. Meet two opponents, clear a barb camp, setle within two tiles of a floodable river or volcano, complete Political Philosophy and get a Tier 1 government (not being first in either case) and you're at 9 points without even trying. Build a +3 Campus and you're past a Dark Age. I think I'm going to not consider this part of the plan.

Since I'm planning on religion I don't know that I'd have the faith income, or have established the gold income, to make Monumentality worthwhile. I'd likely take Free Inquiry to get era score boosts to shoot for a golden Medieval (with Free Inquiry again unless we had a good number of districts and needed culture).

I've already written up a draft plan and will put that up after I get some more SP games tried out. Generally speaking I'm looking at getting Encampment or Campus cities up first, then building out IZ's, RNDs & lighthouses during the Classical/early Medieval. Coastal cities do not need fresh water at their locations - they just need two forest chops + stone/deer harvests with either Veterancy or Magnus available. That completes both the district and the building, gets +3 housing, added coastal food and a trade route slot for the cost of two builder actions over 4-6 turns (and maybe some gold to do a tile buy for the chops). Land military would be strong but defensive (unless we eat a city-state or two), navy would be at least large enough for coastal defense if not ocean supremacy. Military Engineers and Dams will likely play a large role in getting production centers up and running given the bonuses to the engineers.

[Alhambram]

Interesting discussion about dark age!

About tier 1 government, I recall Cornflakes delaying going in tier 1 Government by simply not picking one of three classical governments.
Instead he stayed in Chiefdom, that was a part of punishment against Khmer due cheating of other player in PBEM 7.
Therefore it is possible for us to delay picking tier 1 government once we happen get early Politcal Philoshopy and keep researching other civics.
Which means that massbuilding monuments for culture won't get us "punished" by adding extra era's except one point for reaching classical civic.

Regarding loyalty pressure: defensive it actually don't really matter in first 100 turns due cities not fully grown or loyalty bonuses not yet kicking in.
Attacking other players in dark age however means that captured cities from them do rebel quicker.

Regarding campus spots, if best yield you can find is 2 adjaceny with potential to raise it by tossing down government plaza next it, just fully build campus without fear of gaining extra era points and raising science by putting adjaceny district don't give era points.
You need to get instant 3 adjaceny bonus for most districts, commerical hub and industrial zones 4. Royal Navy Dockyard gives instant 4 era points due Unqiue District.

Grabbing religion is not bad idea if you can make use of Monasticism, in that case just toss down 2 adjaceny holy sites without fear for extra era points or pre build high adjaceny holy sites and finish them at turn 61.
Be wary that Stonehenge for religion is worth 4 era points if you build it in ancient era.

Maybe good idea to limit scouting somewhat, finding natural wonder first is instant 3 points, every time you move scout, check map for unusal yields or unusal high appeal upon seemingly normal tiles.
Meeting each player is 1 point, first to meet all of them is 5 points.

[Thrantar]

What are we looking to get out of a religion?

[suboptimal]

I know that the "standard" SP play for a cultural victory focuses on getting a religion to build up faith for late game Rock Bands & Naturalists, but in MP I don't know that we have that luxury without having anything in our civ or leader abilities to help us boost faith.

The main issue I see with going for a religion is that it forces a choice between taking the "standard" faith-heavy path towards a culture victory and getting our industrialization going via Campus & Encampments early, RNDs + IZs mid-game and Theater Squares mid/late game. Maybe if we have spare laying around once the main districts are built and we've got a few wonders down then we start plopping down Holy Sites just for the faith income even if a religion isn't available.

I'm open, but highly skeptical, regarding arguments for going for a religion early under the current formative plan.

[Thrantar]

Has more thoughts on isolationism, need to test something. Basically, can we use isolationism to "pick up" our external trade routes so we can move them elsewhere?

[suboptimal]

It doesn't look like it because it does not affect external trade routes. It boosts internal trade routes at the cost of prohibiting training settlers and settling cities.

The best way to make sure your trade routes remain flexible is to try to closely align the length of the route with the current minimum turn duration of trade routes.

[Quagma Blast]

Confirming suboptimal's pick as ELEANORE OF ENGLAND