NO PLAYERS- 53 reasons why i shouldnt make maps

[Hitru]

I think that's best.

If someone could suggest this to players that would be great, I have kids to watch

[sunrise089]

Scooter doesn’t like our plan (thanks for doing the posts Hitru). I thought scooter even said something about delaying the attack being an okay option earlier in his thread. My head hurts trying to count turns and count tiles but I partly just think he doesn’t want to deal with a tricky naval attack and wants to rule-lawyer it away (note: I think scooter is a great guy. I don’t think he’s acting in bad faith, I just think he might be letting his feelings on the game influence how he’s viewing this dispute). Anyways I think I favor us saying something like we extensively discussed and this was what we consider the best practicable option.

[shallow_thought]

It's sad that two veteran, generally pretty damn reasonable (IMO) players can't easily agree on something like this. It's indicative of a fundamental issue with the underlying mechanics.

It's not really my place, as pretty much a pure observer of MP, but I think that Scooter is a bit out of line. Yes, a particular play pattern has given Commodore an advantage - although I feel that the suggestion that he deliberately played for it is ... unproven. No, there was no violation of a strict, unambiguous rule. You can't make an unambiguous rule about peacetime splits - induction says you need sequential play for that. If he was that concerned, he could have stated a turn split in his thread and as a PM, awkward as that might have been.

Has the "don't be a jerk" guideline been violated? Scooter clearly thinks so, but the wider community definitely doesn't agree - look at the length of the discussion. He has the right to think so, and a right to choose not to play against Commodore again, but that's it ...

Personally, I feel that this has been a stressful game for him and he's lashing out (side note: I started to draft this before reading Sunrise's post). He needs to either accept the offered mitigation, imperfect as it is, or else be told that there has not been a clear rule violation and no-one is paying people to act as referees (a sadly underpaid class for their job, even in professional sport) in this game.

I just hope he'll feel the same way in a few weeks .

[Serdoa]

Scooter doesn’t like our plan (thanks for doing the posts Hitru). I thought scooter even said something about delaying the attack being an okay option earlier in his thread. My head hurts trying to count turns and count tiles but I partly just think he doesn’t want to deal with a tricky naval attack and wants to rule-lawyer it away (note: I think scooter is a great guy.  I don’t think he’s acting in bad faith, I just think he might be letting his feelings on the game influence how he’s viewing this dispute). Anyways I think I favor us saying something like we extensively discussed and this was what we consider the best practicable option.

Not going to get further into this, just saying: I agree with scooter, but I come from an ancient past it feels. Double-moving does not mean playing two turns back to back, but it seems to be interpreted like this right now. That's, I believe, why you think he did the same to Comm than Comm to him, just a turn earlier. But that is not the issue - the way Comm was abusing the nature off non-sequential turns to move his units twice is the issue. 

If Comm goes T137 first, scooter can move his units towards the city Comm decided to move his galleys. Then on T138 Comm could move them further in that direction or retreat them (getting potentially to the point he is now). And scooter could react to that. And on T139 Comm could attack.

OR

If scooter goes T137 first, scooter moves his units to be able to move towards both potential points from which aggression can happen. Then Comm decides how to move. Then on T138 scooter can move his units accordingly and Comm can decide if he further commits to the attack (or, more likely has to sit his galleys in one of his cities to not get them destroyed) and on T139 scooter again goes first and Comm second.

What happened is neither of those. Comm moved in T137 second, so that scooter - going first - was at an disadvantage having to be prepared for all possible moves. That disadvantage would be made good for by being first in turn order. Now, Comm goes first T138 - and scooter had to eat the disadvantage from T137 + the disadvantage of being second in a naval war. 

Honestly, I would be pissed too in his shoes. I don't know if it breaks any actual, written rules of this game, but it certainly is not in the spirit that we uphold in the past. As soon as you use the non-sequential nature of a PB to gain an advantage in-game, you are breaking the spirit. That's why in the past it read "Don't be a dick!".

[Old Harry]

But why was Scooter allowed to double move the turn before?

[NobleHelium]

scooter did not gain any material advantage from his double move. That's the difference.

As far as I'm concerned Commodore has been doing this bullshit for years (skirting around the rules, making up excuses when called out for it, claiming what he did didn't actually matter, etc.). Some people are just realizing this now (scooter included), some are still not convinced. And yes, I absolutely think scooter has a very legitimate grievance and should be compensated. Since apparently Harry didn't think anyone thinks this.

[sunrise089]

Sorry Noble if you feel like your perspective isn’t being captured. My sense, solely for this thread, is we have 2-3 people wanting strong compensation for scooter, 2-3 people wanting no compensation, and 2-3 people somewhere in the middle. I feel fine with the middle option not merely because it’s some sort of midpoint, but because it seems to be the option none of us feel is manifestly unjust.

[Hitru]

Choosing which half you want gives, by itself, war time advantage ( in this case Scooter going 1st gives Comm 1 turn less to move units in threathened cities ). And as we are not playing and don't know the details there was no way to know if it gave also some other advantage like masking galleon moves or giving intel there would not have been.

So although he did not benefit as directly and blatantly as Comm saying for sure he did not get any war time advantage is IMO flat out wrong.

Furthermore, I stronly feel that Scooter should have established turn split with Comm more firmly.

And since Scooter in his complains concentrated in defensive side 1t extension to peace looked like good solution to me, but with the latest post from him I understand why he would oppose it.

Overall I agree that Scooter should get small reparation and had hoped that 1t delay would be that, but it looks like he is much more involved in attacking than I initially thought.

At this point game needs to continue soon, this has takes way too long.

[Hitru]

I feel like limiting galley range for Comm goes too far, essentially granting Scooter 1t where he can just burn what he can without any consequences.

How about we ask which few unit moves he would have made differently if he would have known about double move and edit those in using worldbuilder? Then just keep current split.

That way Scooter can move units to threathened cities and we don't add any turns to their peace.

[Hitru]

Is using worldbuilder to move units even possible, I guess it should be?