[SPOILERS] enough is ENOUGH! scooter opens some windows and finishes first!

[scooter]

T69 prepares for take-off

Back to this city again:



Granary in. Borders gonna pop in a few turns. It'll be WB next (for the other fish for which you can barely see because I'm a moron who's forgot the resource bubbles), as I grow onto those yummy bananas. I actually did go through and rename all my cities after this, expelling my laziness. Anyways, another city that's developing:



5 workers off to the races down here which is slight overkill, but I care not. Anyways, the bananas will be completed next turn. The two workers will also road the forest grass that has the "chop" label. They will then move to the dyes and improve that. The workers will complete the banana, sink 1T into the other bananas, then chop the forest for a 1T granary, then complete the second bananas. Acutally I may have that backwards, bananas fully then chop. Whatever. You get the point. Then probably go help finish the dyes so we can pass that tile across the lake to Lorelai AND get +1 happy all over the place. EVERYBODY WINS. Mostly me though. Great Merchant is nearing arrival:



Which is so totally neat-o. Once it comes in I'll swap to growth configuration at Holocene since by then I'll have 2 pop of space to grow into which'll be super fun and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. My cities:



That's 14 with #15 coming next turn and 16's settler is in production. Couple more on their way soon thereafter, just trying to do some growing right now. Courthouses will be whipped e'reywhere and then more cities will be constructed recklessly. Demographics:



Good news: GNP looks respectable at 100% science where I pull in 170 beakers/turn. I'm ONLY getting doubled at that point .
Bad news: My break-even is around 30% science where I pull ~ 50 beakers/turn.
Result: I think with that GNP, Serdoa is probably producing more bpt than the rest of us combined, not to mention that great people coming out at a Philosophical pace. In other words, this is probably worse of a beatdown right now than Sullla gave that (kinda weak) PB2 roster, and unlike that game we can't even talk and organize a doomed dogpile. Oh, and if that isn't good enough, he gets to airlift if anyone vaguely threatens one of his cities. Fun stuff . Welp, I guess I'll get to notch another one in my ongoing quest to catch Cyneheard for most 2nd place finishes.

My one consolation is I feel vindicated for thinking in the planning stages that this was the right setup for Suleiman (or Victoria with all these water tiles). Too bad Serdoa took him before I had the chance. Kinda like everything else in this game I tried to do.

[scooter]

T70 hears rumors of more death

Well it looks like some serious stuff went down:



A Great General died. Also of note, Commodore lost 36 points and Serdoa gained 53. HMMMMM. Zero cookies to any lurkers able to put 2 and 2 together because seriously, not that hard. Anyways, this is bad news. Looks like Serdoa took and KEPT(!!) a city from Commodore and killed a great general in the process..? Or maybe he lost one in the assault. Either way, this is rapidly diminishing the effectiveness in my mind of a potential Phract rush, and seeing as that was the only thing that had a prayer at stopping Serdoa, he's probably got this game won already, which is a shame. It's really too bad, but Serdoa's macro was perfect in this game and that did it for him. I was so bent on "elephantselephantselephants" that I didn't take some of the opportunities the game afforded me. Plus, literally losing TGLH by 1/5th of a turn crushed me. That was just a brutal loss - I'd be in much better shape with that.

Anyways, going to do the Moai overflow gig again next turn:



That'll put be pretty close to finishing it. I'll either do it one more time after that or I'll just slowbuild the rest - haven't decided. Settled a new city:



Borrowed the fish. Also have several workers in the area that are ready to chop chop etc. Commodore's food chart is interesting here:



See the thing is - I'm not even sure that dip would belong to a lost city. Usually the charts are a full turn behind. Thought it was noteworthy anyways. Also wow - Brian has really struggled in this game. He's lagging behind guys who have lost multiple cities. Tough game for him. Demos:



This is not a great update, so I'll do a better one next turn and I'll explain what I'm going to do about the current situation and all that. Need to think it over a bit.

Actually, scratch that. I'll do it now. So here's the deal. Serdoa has won this game, and I have likely finished second. With Representation on a map that screams "run Representation" and the GLH, there's no way at all to catch up economically. Just not possible. Maybe if Commodore gets Colossus he could use his FIN + Colossus to work a bunch of 2/0/4 tiles and sort of maybe catch him up, but he's so far behind the growth curve now that it no longer matters. So what are the options here?

1) Concede - Might seem crazy, but not unreasonable. In a no-diplo game, we just can't coordinate together and bring him down much at all.

2) Continue playing sim-city as I breeze to a strong second place position while Serdoa strengthens his position and eventually runs over everyone with Cavs while we field Longbows

3) Go out with a bang.

I'm leaning towards #3. See, I have a UU that can move fast and a TON of population - more than anyone. Yes Serdoa leads pop in the demos, but that's just because of his huge capital. In actual pop points, I'm leading easily. So that means slave myself into the ground and get a TON of Keshiks and just throw them at Serdoa. As many as I can get before he can draft Muskets. 50 is not an unreasonable number. Problem is it's likely to be a slaughter as he will easily have longbows and if he has Pikes then LOL what's the point. So even this might be silly. Though I could always throw them at Lewwyn instead and grab a bunch of land that way?

Either way, that's what I'm considering. Any thoughts? Only a few of my cities actually have the barracks & Ger, but I would probably get those before Keshiks. I've even got a small standing army of about 6 of them that I"m just using for defense to get me started. So we'll see.

[scooter]

And another thing. We're getting awfully closer to where we should start banning the Pyramids in games. Now yes, Serdoa built it and we didn't. However, he correctly noticed that on this map, Pyramids is a "win button." It just is. With stone at the capital, lots of forests, a meh amount of good cottage land but very high food spots to run specialists... There's no way to compete with that. Every dominant position relies on exploiting Pyramids (Seven/Novice in PBEM23 and PBEM29) or exploiting the GLH (Mack in both of those games). If you get neither, you cannot win, period. Now, on an all-land map obviously that would change a little, but when's the last time we've had one of those? We've had a couple, but not many.

Now, a cottage economy can absolutely compete in the mid->late game, but that's pointless when the Pyramids builder starts trotting out Cuirassers/Cavs/Rifles when you've got longbows, which is going to happen in this game if we don't concede before then. Basically, the correct power-play now is to get yourself the Pyramids, run a bunch of specialists, farmer's gambit, string together a bunch of bulbs to easily win Liberalism, build Taj and MoM and blow everyone away with two dozen golden age turns where you use Caste + Pyramids to 1T a bunch of expensive techs which puts you a several eras ahead, then draft and kill everything in sight. It's so formulaic. Now it requires a high degree of skill to pull it off, but if you have the ability to out-micro everyone to hit those key goals, you win.

It's especially magnified by the constant push to ban or nerf Financial. Financial cottages is one of the ways to sort of keep up with the Pyramids (well not really, but you can at least be semi-competitive that way), but since nearly all games either ban Financial or nerf it (like this one did), it magnifies the already ludicrous power of the wonder. Now of course, it could be semi-balanced by the meta factor of everyone prioritizing it and thus building it earlier and thus making it more "expensive" - but even that is silly because the ones who go for it and miss are even more crippled than normal. I'm not really sure what the proper balance to strike is here, but Pyramids is so powerful, so early, and so expensive to go for and miss that I'm just not sure we should play with it anymore. Or at least include artificial limits to make it less attractive (like, cannot build it until X tech is researched) so that the snowball effects of it don't get started so early. To be clear, it's not ALWAYS an instant-win button by any stretch, but in a 5 player game where FIN is nerfed and cottages are nerfed, it is absolutely an instant-win button. Full disclosure: all credit to Serdoa for figuring this out wayyyyy before the rest of us did.

Anyways, yes, the problem with this is it swings the balance back in favor of FIN, but that can be compensated for pretty easily. I don't mean banning it either... I mean learning from the example of this game. It's a pity the game is nearly wrapped up so early, but this game has been wildly successful at one thing: showing you can get players to make slightly abnormal picks based on unusual starting choices. This is why I was excited about this game - the setup was brilliant. Best part is you can re-use it: pick a different set of bonuses for each trait/tech, and make sure FIN is harder to choose. No one picked India because duh. Only Lewwyn picked Inca, and we see how well that's working out for him. FIN was still a strong choice here, but it forced you to choose between the other traits that were best for this setup - PHI and IMP because of the bonuses they got. This map is such that an SE would be strong even without the Pyramids honestly, and the Pyramids just happens to break the game wide open.

To wrap up, this was a bit of a ramble, but hopefully it sparks a little discussion. Because we've shifted towards a no-diplo or AW as a whole for PBEMs, it's much harder to dogpile onto people who use something like Pyramids to blow everyone away. Take PBEM17 - Novice & Spaceman won that game as far as I'm concerned because the mass deal-breaking was equivalent to conceding IMO. Anyways, they lapped the field in GNP even worse than Serdoa did here because they grabbed Mids + TGL. They were WAY behind in the growth curve when they finally did it, but it didn't matter because they could settle cities whenever they wanted because every city was a net gain. Now that we've taken away the ability to coordinate a mass stab like that, those wonders are even more broken. Again, this is less of the case in a Pitboss because you have way more players and thus way more variables, but in a simple PBEM where you have far less competitors, ridiculous power-plays like Serdoa has pulled off are far easier and thus, far stronger.

[Krill]

I'm actually considering the effect of Pyramids FWIW...

Take PBEM17 - Novice & Spaceman won that game as far as I'm concerned because the mass deal-breaking was equivalent to conceding IMO

All of the players actually agreed that it was a concede, we only played on because the map was interesting

[scooter]

I'm actually considering the effect of Pyramids FWIW...

I would like to see you play a more traditional "heavy REX, whip, cottage" game vs a Seven/Novice/etc playing a Pyramids game. I think you could've played this start better than I did, but I'm still not sure it would have been enough. The question on this map is where do you get your tech from? In my mind, 3-4 options: Mids (Serdoa), GLH (Serdoa), FIN on water tiles (Commodore), and Colossus (I'd assume Commodore since he's had MC for so long). Cottages by themselves is not enough. Not even sure GLH would have been enough, but I'd be in much better shape if I had that. I'm still not in a terrible position solely because I've expanded hard and have probably vastly more tile improvements than anyone and the ability to grow higher, but by the time I get my act together economicaly Serdoa will be at Liberalism and so on. I probably could have pushed expansion even harder, but I badly need Courthouses so yeah. It's an interesting challenge.

All of the players actually agreed that it was a concede, we only played on because the map was interesting

Yeah that was my impression, I just didn't want to assume.

[Gaspar]

Well, I've stated I agree with this before. I think the issue is that in a game all about snowball and without the ability to use diplomacy to buy yourself time getting started fastest is going to be best. SE will always start faster than a CE because the payoff for CE is much, much later. That's fine with a normal SE, the CE player can do things to try and stall while waiting for their explosion. When you have Rep so early though...

To me I actually think the bigger issue is how often the game these days comes down to the three major early economic wonders - Pyramids, GLH, Colossus. I don't know that its broken. I know its probably not fun. Its fun for the first 50t when everyone is chasing them. But if you get skunked you're just playing a 100t death march because you can't compete long term. I mean really - the only game I can think of recently where the winner didn't build at least one of those was 26 and that banned 2 of 3 and then civ that built mids was basically locked in war forever after building it. And Colossus isn't nearly as strong as the other two because its obsoletes at a tech you can't realistically ignore on any map that takes heavy advantage of it.

Anyway, I think the greater point is the current metagame is played out - we know how these games will end. Its time to adjust it. I think Seven's ideas here were an excellent shout at changing one part of that. But I don't necessarily think bans are the answer - maybe they are, I don't know - but I do think as long as we keep playing No TT, No FIN, no Inca/India, AW/No-diplo games they're going to continue to play out the same way.

(NOTE: Not advocating returns to diplo and NAP-hell)

[scooter]

Well, I've stated I agree with this before. I think the issue is that in a game all about snowball and without the ability to use diplomacy to buy yourself time getting started fastest is going to be best. SE will always start faster than a CE because the payoff for CE is much, much later. That's fine with a normal SE, the CE player can do things to try and stall while waiting for their explosion. When you have Rep so early though...

To me I actually think the bigger issue is how often the game these days comes down to the three major early economic wonders - Pyramids, GLH, Colossus. I don't know that its broken. I know its probably not fun. Its fun for the first 50t when everyone is chasing them. But if you get skunked you're just playing a 100t death march because you can't compete long term. I mean really - the only game I can think of recently where the winner didn't build at least one of those was 26 and that banned 2 of 3 and then civ that built mids was basically locked in war forever after building it. And Colossus isn't nearly as strong as the other two because its obsoletes at a tech you can't realistically ignore on any map that takes heavy advantage of it.

Anyway, I think the greater point is the current metagame is played out - we know how these games will end. Its time to adjust it. I think Seven's ideas here were an excellent shout at changing one part of that. But I don't necessarily think bans are the answer - maybe they are, I don't know - but I do think as long as we keep playing No TT, No FIN, no Inca/India, AW/No-diplo games they're going to continue to play out the same way.

(NOTE: Not advocating returns to diplo and NAP-hell)

As usual, you said exactly what I was thinking in a much clearer and more succinct manner. Agree with all of this.

[mackoti]

Reading all what Scooter wrote made me chuckle, when i joined here i said Mids its the stronger wonder, and almost everyone made fun of me , even calling me Midskoti or something like that.

In pbem 17 for example i think i made some hints in rego thread about mids, but no one ever heared me.But still i dont agree Mids or GLH its winning button,but if a player gets both its the other fault,and mids are so expensiv i heared that so many times.
For example mids builded Mids in 25 and wasnt enough for him to pull a win and even we didnt dogpiled him i am prety sure that by this time plako's economy or mine would have been better.

I won pbem 18 altough Lewwyn got the super mids and someone else GLH, i just got the power less colosus which personaly i think was stranger that both togheder.

If we go to pbem 23, well there (i am not trying to dismiss Seven's and novice's play , it was briliant),all that stuff happnede becasue i got 3 wrong great people one of those was at 2% odds, if wasnt for that we would had Astronomy same time(me after 4 turns) and with my beter cottaged land and GLH i am sure they would have been the guys defending.

In you game how much to you pay for maintenace?Why didnt you go for monarchy so you can grow cities bigger and get more cottages worked?After seeing this map if you ask me if you can beat mids economy i am realy sure i could do that but its takes alot of planning .

[Gaspar]

Reading all what Scooter wrote made me chuckle, when i joined here i said Mids its the stronger wonder, and almost everyone made fun of me , even calling me Midskoti or something like that.

In pbem 17 for example i think i made some hints in rego thread about mids, but no one ever heared me.But still i dont agree Mids or GLH its winning button,but if a player gets both its the other fault,and mids are so expensiv i heared that so many times.
For example mids builded Mids in 25 and wasnt enough for him to pull a win and even we didnt dogpiled him i am prety sure that by this time plako's economy or mine would have been better.

I won pbem 18 altough Lewwyn got the super mids and someone else GLH, i just got the power less colosus which personaly i think was stranger that both togheder.

If we go to pbem 23, well there (i am not trying to dismiss Seven's and novice's play , it was briliant),all that stuff happnede becasue i got 3 wrong great people one of those was at 2% odds, if wasnt for that we would had Astronomy same time(me after 4 turns) and with my beter cottaged land and GLH i am sure they would have been the guys defending.

In you game how much to you pay for maintenace?Why didnt you go for monarchy so you can grow cities bigger and get more cottages worked?After seeing this map if you ask me if you can beat mids economy i am realy sure i could do that but its takes alot of planning .

Maybe we'd all learn what you're doing and get better if you ever updated your damn threads.

[scooter]

Reading all what Scooter wrote made me chuckle, when i joined here i said Mids its the stronger wonder, and almost everyone made fun of me , even calling me Midskoti or something like that.

In pbem 17 for example i think i made some hints in rego thread about mids, but no one ever heared me.But still i dont agree Mids or GLH its winning button,but if a player gets both its the other fault,and mids are so expensiv i heared that so many times.
For example mids builded Mids in 25 and wasnt enough for him to pull a win and even we didnt dogpiled him i am prety sure that by this time plako's economy or mine would have been better.

I won pbem 18 altough Lewwyn got the super mids and someone else GLH, i just got the power less colosus which personaly i think was stranger that both togheder.

If we go to pbem 23, well there (i am not trying to dismiss Seven's and novice's play , it was briliant),all that stuff happnede becasue i got 3 wrong great people one of those was at 2% odds, if wasnt for that we would had Astronomy same time(me after 4 turns) and with my beter cottaged land and GLH i am sure they would have been the guys defending.

First off, I think your body of work in PBEMs here speaks for itself. I also think you demonstrate my point about PBEM vs PB. You built Mids in PB4 and were pretty much a nonfactor in that game. That wasn't necessarily solely because you built Mids, but it was because you got into a long drawn-out war and the diplo wheels turned against you (and your land kinda sucked but yeah). In PB7 you and Seven have landed Pyramids and promptly got embroiled into a brutal war that I can't further comment on due to spoilers. The common denominator in those games is there were a lot more players, and in a game with lots of players, inevitably some players are out of the running earlier and thus have nothing really to lose by screwing their strong neighbor. Less true in a PBEM where you only have a few rivals. Also in those games people were able to talk and manipulate diplomatically which also somewhat weakens power-plays like the Pyramids.

In you game how much to you pay for maintenace?Why didnt you go for monarchy so you can grow cities bigger and get more cottages worked?After seeing this map if you ask me if you can beat mids economy i am realy sure i could do that but its takes alot of planning .

Some good questions. I considered Monarchy, but the main reason I didn't had nothing to do with Serdoa. It's Cataphracts. The problem with taking Joao here is, in a vacuum, I'm the most logical target for Cataphracts - especially the insane slingshot that Commodore cooked up (really too bad that we won't see that played-out in proper force). If I'm Byz, I want to take a bunch of land and quickly. What better opponent to do that to than the guy who will likely expand everyone but also be a bit behind in tech (Joao). That's me. So I had to push for elephants and push for Construction to deter him. So in short, it was Construction or Monarchy, pick your poison. The Construction route made more sense to me as Currency is boosted by my island plays which I still think were strong ones (getting 2 early IC routes), and it left me a stones throw away from Calendar which is a big boost. The Construction/Calendar route gave me the following happies:

Ivory: +1, then another +1 after market (ivory doubler)
Calendar: instant +1 for incense, then soon another +1 for dyes

So that's 4 happy right there - probably stronger than Hereditary Rule while giving more economic benefits. So that's my rationale there. I'm actually not currently all that restrained by happy - I can grow a bit higher still and I'm about to get dyes online, and I have another calendar happy and gems both within reasonable reach of me, plus I'm about to get MC which would give forges and another happy. In other words, I'm not really lacking for happy all that much right now. What I really need are Courthouses - I'm running 10gpt in most of my further cities. I just finished Code of Laws, and it'll be whip Courthouses time (the need for Code of Laws ASAP is another reason to avoid the Monarchy path). We'll see if that does anything.

Finally, yes I believe you can beat Mids economy on this map. However, I don't believe you can beat Mids + GLH + PHI on this map (remember I lost GLH by 1/5th of a turn). Or at least if you want to try, I don't think you can do it without FIN and/or Colossus, and neither are available to me realistically.