[PB63 Spoilers] - Pindicator Unlocks 10 Year Achievement

[pindicator]

The worker turns and border were some reasons for thinking about settling on top of the copper. There is then room for a city between the rice and sheep to pursue SDs copper city.

I'm not sure if we ever get the hill between the corn and silver. But I'm looking at the hill SE of the corn and that could be gettable in either situation. Or the grass hill between the sheep and cow but that is more defensive in nature.

I did consider the double seafood spot for city 3 and I like it better for city 4. The deer/horse spot can open with a wb but it's more that there is no competition in the south right now so that city is going to have a little bit of time to get up and running. However, if we're also going to want to push north against SD then when is there ever time for a city to the east?

I think strategically I'm unresolved on whether to go with a stable border or not. I don't see easy city locations for prying culture into SD and the good city locations seem to lend themselves to a stable border. Going for horchers towards JackRB has a slight lead in my mind right now

[pindicator]

Naturally the one time they flip the turn fast is the turn i need to take time and think things through.

[Zed-F]

Even with a city 1N of copper we can still plant a city 1S or 2S of dye if we want an unstable border... the problem is more how soon we can defend it, how soon we need to rush there to make the border sufficiently unstable, and how much does that cost us in terms of natural growth prospects? It doesn't look like a city in that region would have any natural defense advantages, so we'd need a significant garrison to protect it until we are ready to leverage it into an attack.

If I were SD I would be thinking about someday planting a city 1N of dye (or 1NW) to get/share access to 2 rice, cow, silver. If we plan to plant a city 2S of dye when he does, that could be an opportunity to create an unstable border.

How much do we know about Jack's tenaciousness on defense? We know SD is not the world's strongest defender but is at least tenacious enough to make a nuisance of himself.

[Krill]

There is an argument for building a stable border with SD to the north, then trying to murder him by rolling through Jack and hitting SD with a Pincer movement. That is really optimistic, but then if we are going to go through Jack first I imagine we would want a fairly stable border to our north incase we choose to stop.

[Krill]

I don't see how SD settles anywhere except 1NE of corn. He might settle elsewhere for his third city, but 1NE of corn is a certainty to me: if he tries to be aggressive and forward settle into us that is actually helpful. If he "rushes" there then we can't stop him and I think we have little left to discuss. But I still struggle to see past 1N of copper.

[pindicator]

Regarding the "whip settler for quick third city", I do want to point out that you may want to reconsider how and when the settler for the pocket double seafood city is going to get built: It requires no workers as there is already a hill mined and it maye be worth considering taking the 5 turn hit now and using that as a third city location, then whipping the settler/worker combo for the horse city as fourth city.

My gut feeling is that this is a bad choice but worth raising it. I think the standard play needs to be followed if we are not trying to force an unstable border: hook food resources asap, get copper hooked so that we can grow on and whip axe/phalanx if needed. Therefore we need to look at the number of workers in hand.

More on this because worker turns are really in demand here. I think city 2 will have to be the early military pump. But getting a fast settler for city 3 still entices me because that city can prep for the double seafood city by opening work boat and growing on the clam. After 6 turns it grows to size 2 and to a worker, puts 5 turns into the worker and then whips it to completion.

Actually, let's just pump out a worker from the capital before doing a whip. That will be a 3-turn build and that 2nd early worker will definitely be more useful than a city without any worker or work boat support. Then we can follow up with a double or triple whipped settler.

2nd draft dotmap:




The first city could still be either on copper or 1N of the copper. I was looking at on copper just for the reduction in worker turns needed to get copper online and the city up and running. (Edit: Also, 1N of copper has a food problem once it hits size 6 for working all those 0 food bonus tiles.) But putting things out like this, I think we can have a solid border on the east end with superdeath and then aim for a contested border in the west. Because where does he put his cities towards the silver? If he plants on that hill between the corn and silver then city 3 is going to really punish that spot culturally. If he pulls farther back then that opens the door for us to sneak in to the northwest. And truly, I'm only worried about an early wonder out of his 2nd city: any city in the west is going to be difficult for him to build infrastructure in and he can't chop one out from there.

[Krill]

I think that second dot map is pretty sound tbh.

My view of the horse city is that it must be given a worker from the capital. It is fine to let it grow on a workboat and then onto a granary (which could be whipped to completion) but once it has three improved tiles it can just whip a lighthouse for 4 solid tiles. The worker turn cost is the same whenever we plant, but I don't know if it is more important to throw the workers at city 2: it needs two food resources hooking and they are at opposite sides.

If we settle 1N of copper (please keep in mind once improved we lose warrior builds), and it is settled T38 we are looking at growth@2 eot42 but border pop eot42 as well so can't start hooking resources until then. But even without food, it would be growth@3 eot46. This makes me question if we need to get a second worker out for City2, then do the worker/settler whip shenanigans for horse city?

[Zed-F]

Site 3 placement looks good if we settle on copper, I like that we are still grabbing a mountain early for visibility, and I agree that we probably need to have that city working the gold at least sometimes so it doesn't all fall on the copper city's shoulders. I also agree that settle on copper or settle 1N of copper is still an open question.

I am thinking one disincentive for SD to planting a city 1NE of corn is that it makes it impossible for him to fit a city opposite where we have our site 3 on our dotmap. It seems as though it will result in wasted potential; he might put a city 1N of corn instead. Either way I agree that a solid border in the east and conflict in the west makes more sense than going for conflict immediately.

I think we would prefer to put our city 5? 1N of where it is to grab the corn ourselves and to make it easier to fit a city south of there without putting it on a floodplain (would have to be at least 3S or 3S1E of 5? in order to allow a city claiming the marble island), but we'll have to wait and see if SD gives us the opportunity.

[Krill]

Actually, what happens if we whip the settler now and then build 2 workers? Settler eot37, then worker eot39 and eot44? The third worker is just too slow because it would complete the deer camp T49. however, what happens if we go worker/settler/worker and delay the whip? worker eot38, settler eot40, worker eot43? That would allow Worker2 to reach the wheat on T41 which is too early.

If a worker runs straight from Balloon Girl to the wheat it would need to be finished eot40. I think the micro challenge right now is figuring out how to get the workers where we need them due to the lack of roads and how to fit in that third settler at the most efficient time. I suspect that delaying the capital whip until the last moment is the most efficient route now: Worker T36, settler T37, T38, whip T39, worker eot40, worker eot42 by my reckoning?

[pindicator]

Actually, what happens if we whip the settler now and then build 2 workers? Settler eot37, then worker eot39 and eot44? The third worker is just too slow because it would complete the deer camp T49. however, what happens if we go worker/settler/worker and delay the whip? worker eot38, settler eot40, worker eot43? That would allow Worker2 to reach the wheat on T41 which is too early.

I just ran this scenario actually. Worker2 would move south to improve the deer and finishes it t43, same turn as city 3 gets founded. Worker1 will finish the gold mine for want of something else to do (rather wish I had improved the deer now instead of mining that hill), but ends up getting to the 2nd wheat on t43, a turn too late. Worker3 I'm not sure what to do with yet; the most inefficient thing is for him to help finish the wheat with worker1 to get it a turn earlier, but more likely he'll be planting road because Wheel finishes T42 here.

Maybe it's better to let worker1 be a turn late. City2 will be able to share the oasis here, not a great tile but we are starved for commerce a bit. Or there's your second option, which I need to run through next.