Pitboss 18 Organizing Thread (RB Mod 34 Civs)

[Ichabod]

Well, I originally floated the idea of the huge 30+ player game and no map trading was one of the main ways to make it more manageable for peoples PCs, and it helps limit information overload for players.

It's not critical it be disabled from a technical point of view, but when I was designing the game it seemed like a good rule to not lead to a similar burn out to that seen in PB3, (although that was diplo lead, and PB13 seems to have gone well, this game has double the players so checking F4 techs, resources, diplomacy screens etc can become a chore).

Just my 2 cents, but limiting information overload doesn't seem to be a good objective. It's the same as with C&D, some people are willing/have fun doing it, some people don't. "Limiting information overload" as a goal implies there are players with the compulsion of looking through all the info that is avaiable at all times - that should be solved by a psychiatrist, not the mod-maker (just kidding, but I think it manages to get my point across). Besides, most of the information you refered to, as far as I know, has nothing to do with map trading (you don't get F4 info through map exchanges, you need to have met the player to see them).

Anyway, I understand the technical side of things, but I can't agree with the info-overload one. Like i've said, I don't want to argue about settings, because we already agreed that it won't be possible with 34 players. But trying to work out a difficult technical solution to a problem that may not even be a problem in the first place (and that goes against what we usually expect from a game of Civ 4) seemed a bit strange.

Anyway, with all that being said, I'll play the game no matter what. I'm just ded-lurking Darrell, so I think I should actually advocate for the most tiresome, taxing and burdensome settings, right?

[WilliamLP]

I think having no map trading, and 34 disparate views of the world, is the most fun thing about this game idea! Please, I hope we don't compromise on this. (It's by far my biggest pet peeve about RBMod - whoosh everyone gets satellites researched on turn 50.)

[Fintourist]

this game has double the players so checking F4 techs, resources, diplomacy screens etc can become a chore).

Although the above depends mostly on who you have actually met and not really whether you have received the knowledge where someone far away from you is located via map trading chain. I think the fun factors from no map trading are:
1. More decisions need to be based on imperfect information
2. Mystery of the new map remains longer as there are no map trading chains
3. There is no need to spend time sending diplo request to your contacts if you want to keep your global map updated
4. I get pissed off later, because I get to see my neighbours obviously greener land later
and maybe most importantly
5. When you can't get full map knowledge with little effort you need to more carefully evaluate the value of better scouting and if you want to invest into it.

I think the biggest downside is that with less information it is more difficult to speculate what is actually happening on global scale, which can be quite fun too. It's totally awesome if Sullla can provide some "state of the world" updates so that at least afterwards it's possible to understand what really has happened.

[Krill]

Anyway, with all that being said, I'll play the game no matter what. I'm just ded-lurking Darrell, so I think I should actually advocate for the most tiresome, taxing and burdensome settings, right? lol

Sold. No need to make the implementation then

[plako]

I also would prefer no map trading. I also think known-civ bonuses would work much better, if instead of individual tech pace they would be tied on global tech pace. This way those who need the help most i.e. those coming behind get bigger multiplier sooner. I would implement this e.g. based on the era i.e. when 1st person enters the era known civ bonuses are increased to everyone. Not sure how easy this is to implement, but this is what I would do.

[plako]

Also current version of the RB mod does not include changed source codes for the CvgameCoredll. I think it would be beneficial to keep them alongside with the mode so that the changes made could be checked and compared to original.

[Ichabod]

I also think the game will be more fun without map trading. I was just pointing out that this was a non-evident setting that was supposedly being assumed without actually being listed in the settings of the game.

[WilliamLP]

Great list!

1. More decisions need to be based on imperfect information
2. Mystery of the new map remains longer as there are no map trading chains
3. There is no need to spend time sending diplo request to your contacts if you want to keep your global map updated
4. I get pissed off later, because I get to see my neighbours obviously greener land later
and maybe most importantly
5. When you can't get full map knowledge with little effort you need to more carefully evaluate the value of better scouting and if you want to invest into it.

6. With none or later map trading, denying scouting itself becomes an element of strategy.
7. Also, reasoning about what a neighbor knows, what they know I know, etc. becomes another element of increased strategic depth. E.g. someone can get an advantage anticipating better long term borders and military defense zones by knowing the geography better. Even on the level of, say, knowing something is a peninsula when you think it's an island.
8. Less demanding C&D. When you have the whole map you can get some information from observing all pop growths / whips / chops / tile yield changes every turn. Since nobody can do this you're on equal footing if you don't want to.
9. Lurkers are more likely to be interested in your thread when your view of the world is more unique and has geographic information not available to anyone else. (And it will be fun to read other reports starting from a completely different view of the world, which may or may not eventually come together with your own.)

[Krill]

As much as everyone wants to play without map trades, I'm really convinced by Ichabods' point that we should play with it on to fuck with Darrell

[BRickAstley]

Why not just make Satellites or etc required for map trades again?