[SPOILERS - PBEM17] darrelljs - Elizabeth of Egypt

[Krill]

Longer term, I want Paper -> Education so fast it makes your head spin. I prefer the Civil Service route to Paper because I think Theology has less value itself (don't see AP as worth the cost). A capital like Brazil can pull in 70 commerce easily. With Library/University/Academy/Oxford we get 210 beakers. Under Bureaucracy we'd get 315 beakers. For argument's sake let's assume a 50/50 duty cycle on research, so we'd have to save 53 gold/turn for Vassalage's economic impact to outstrip Bureaucracy's. I have trouble seeing that, and even pre-Oxford's number of 35/turn is hard to believe. The 2 XPs/unit will probably push Vassalage to the top, but given that Feudalism is an arrow discount to Civil Service let's just plan on teching it and deciding later .

We will not be running minimum defense - the downside of a map where we can get invaded on four different fronts. So we are going to have a fair number of units on each front - don't forget triremes, galleys, cats add up.

On top of that for Brazil to be hitting 70 commerce it needs 65 base commerce from cottages - that's something like 13 river villages pre-PP (there are a max of 9 fwiw). I don't think that is actually a reasonable number, more reasonable is about 50, so Bureaucracy makes a delta of +25 commerce per turn, the rest is made under Vassalage anyway so is inconsequential for comparing the civics. As costs are constant (T-hawk argument for trade routes in Merc), that is 25 bpt pre-multipliers. However, as FS is be far the strongest civic from a tile output perspective, that's got to be the end goal of that civic column, so there is a short period where Bureaucracy may provide an economic output that is large enough to make it worthwhile, but it's our aim is to make that length of time as short as possible.

For comparison, the unit cost number is affected by Inflation. There is also the fact that a triple revolt in one turn is possible up until we have about 24 cities, so quite viable...if we "beelined" Fued, otherwise we are stuck not running HR for quite a while. The techs off a beeline that would be worth getting are those that increased the happy cap (so more cottages to work) so definitely Calendar if we had 2 happy res, maybe if we only had the incense.

I agree that CS needs to be researched, but the when is debatable - if Vassalage is the civic of choice, there is no need to farms, and Machinery isn't on the cards there is zero value in that tech. I understand the itch finger syndrome on PHI universities and Stone'd OU, but then there are other needs. Optics for Caravels. Engineering for road movement/pikes. Guilds/Banking for better gold mulitpliers and/or merc if we are pariahs. Music for the GA, and denial. Lit for NE/GL. Gunpowder for better defenders is about the best reason for us to go for Education early, other than the obvious.

The near term tech path should be:

Masonry -> Writing -> Mathematics -> Sailing -> Calendar

I like Calendar for extra happy (and commerce) from the Incense, and an early start on the MoM (chopped out at the Henge city). In the unlikely event The Colossus hasn't fallen by that point, I would consider Metal Casting next. Otherwise I think Priesthood -> Monotheism -> Monarchy makes the most sense. Then Metal Casting. Then Currency -> Code of Laws -> Feudalism -> Civil Service -> Paper -> Education.

Darrell

MC isn't an option, that is a military necessity. It goes in either immediately when it is needed or before. Part of the reason for getting Fued earlier is that that alone can act as a deterrent and mean the MC research can be delayed. Also, figuring out long beelines is pretty much a waste for the same reason that figuring out MM plans is - the situation changes. Get to Maths, fine, either Calendar or MC or Monarchy, but after that, no chance.

[darrelljs]

I don't think it hurts to look ahead, as long as you realize no battle plan lasts past the point of first contact .

Darrell

[Krill]

Basic points for T38:

1. Guile needs to move 7 and cottage/cancel
   
2. India can keep on growing, the turn after it grows to size 3 the gems are hooked.
   
3. Check all the cities before ending turn - sometimes cottages aren't being worked for no reason.

Also for the Henge chop, if you dedicate 2 workers to the quarry and 3 to chops, it works out hte same as 3 quarrying and 2 chopping, except it is safer to use 3 workers to chop out henge and get it in a single turn.

[darrelljs]

That was to get a garrison warrior to avoid an unhappy face...

Darrell

[darrelljs]

We have a different approach on this one. I like Guile finishing that road, getting the Quarry road earlier doesn't help at all if I am hooking up the Gems I end up with an odd number of turns on it. I still prefer the 3 Workers on the Quarry as well, I think it gives better balance overall. I did indeed notice #2, which is why I didn't swap to a 1H tile in India.

And, as I mentioned before the forest tile in Brazil was to get the MP Warrior as I grew to size 4. The plains forest was a governor selection. So, :neenernee. I'll update the spreadsheet through Stonehenge and play the turn in about an hour.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Damn my sorry eyes, the forest west of the Sheep isn't on a hill .

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Masonry in. Demos:



Darrell

[darrelljs]

The more I look at past demos, the more I think we aren't doing all that better than our peers, or at least most of them. I think everyone is pulling ballpark the same in culture now, so our GNP is a legitimate second and only slightly better than average. Our crop yield remains impressive but with only one Granary our production is not great. Look at that 41 crop yield. Even if its paired with the 6 production its ahead of us. With so many EXP leaders odds are they have more Granaries than we do, so its probably way ahead of us.

So, bottom line I think we are doing good but not great. I also am back to thinking 8 cities on the Hanging Gardens, and an extra pair of Workers instead of an extra Settler or two. So either 4 Settlers/2 Workers from this point.

Darrell

[Gold Ergo Sum]

I think more settlers are better than more workers. The island overall is pretty small, so many of our tiles will be coastal. Also, if we are aggressively whipping, most cities will only need 3-4 improved tiles, many of which will be overlapping. Also, any extra pop points we get in the cities can be immediately turned into a missing granary or another worker.

Only once we get Calendar and convert to Hinduism will our happy cap get up to 8/7, so we don't really need to worry too much about growing onto improved tiles until around the time HGs finishes, which will give us tons of pop to whip for extra workers anyway.

[Krill]

The more I look at past demos, the more I think we aren't doing all that better than our peers, or at least most of them. I think everyone is pulling ballpark the same in culture now, so our GNP is a legitimate second and only slightly better than average. Our crop yield remains impressive but with only one Granary our production is not great. Look at that 41 crop yield. Even if its paired with the 6 production its ahead of us. With so many EXP leaders odds are they have more Granaries than we do, so its probably way ahead of us.

So, bottom line I think we are doing good but not great. I also am back to thinking 8 cities on the Hanging Gardens, and an extra pair of Workers instead of an extra Settler or two. So either 4 Settlers/2 Workers from this point.

Darrell

This is a downward blip for us and an upward blip for them. Blips happen. Just keep on pushing settlers. One player has four cities and we're up there in pop. We aren't supposed to be blowing anyone out of the water just yet. However, our current GNP, 40 is without the 20% tech bonus, whereas the others will be, so I'd say we are still first. Also...we've only used 1 chop. We have 32 forests in reserve, of which about, what 7 are getting chopped for wonders? That's a lot of hammers spare.

And, as I mentioned before the forest tile in Brazil was to get the MP Warrior as I grew to size 4. The plains forest was a governor selection. So, . I'll update the spreadsheet through Stonehenge and play the turn in about an hour.

Could have sworn it was India that was working a grass forest (as well). Eh, nights...