The First Civ6 Lurker Thread

[TheArchduke]

Yeah, I was positively suprised how the Aztecs dowed Germany and not me.

You either stop Sullla by conquering stuff of me quicker then him or attacking him directly. As Sullla said they should concede by now. If they do not get their act together soon.

[kjn]

I really think Sullla declaring on Yuris as well and using his legions now would be poor for him.

Yeah, he will likely win the first battles and take Frankfurt and Mainz. And then? He will be at war with both the other players, they are likely to have knights (Yuris) and crossbows (teh), and as Sullla noted, while archers are outmatched by legions, crossbows aren't.

He already has double the land of the other players and plans to expand that lead further. But he haven't turned that land lead into a decisive lead in tech yet. From a meta-gaming standpoint, build up enough military for a short decisive war, win that war, and then consolidate is solid play. Compare Pitboss 33, where Dreylin/OT4E squandered their early game winning position by declaring war on just about everyone one of their neighbours.

[Dreylin]

Well it's not that I don't think sitting back and waiting is a valid option - and likely a (slightly) more certain route to victory - but that there is clearly an opportunity here to end this quickly and decisively. I think it's Commodore who has talked a bit in the past about playing the player and aiming for the psychological blow that crushes their spirit; well rolling over their combined armies is that blow right there. (although maybe not for yuris - ref current Civ V pbem)

And please let's not get hung up on "oh yuris can have knights soon (can he?) and teh Crossbows", look at the tech picture in Sulla's latest post; he can already field Crossbows and is 6t from Knights should he so choose, and he has the base to churn them out and the road networks to get them to the front (not to mention enough Iron to build them everywhere without an Encampment District).

Sullla has a deserved reputation for putting together detailed plans and delivering on them, but he also has a bit of a reputation of getting too attached to those plans and not adapting quickly enough to changing circumstances. I suggest that this is one of those times.

Anyway, likely we get 30-40t of Sulla playing in his sandbox and the other two gradually reporting less as their interest in the game wanes. Someone needs to go start soliciting for PBEM2 now while lurker interest is at it's peak...

Compare Pitboss 33, where Dreylin/OT4E squandered their early game winning position by declaring war on just about everyone one of their neighbours.

Well PB33 did happen, yes, but that's a gross oversimplification and it's not really equivalent to this situation. For a start, after our conquest of the Dutch we had ~1/4 of the map area, whereas Sullla now has >1/2; secondly, we were behind in technology & development while Sullla leads in all categories in this game. We had lots of game winning potential after the conquest, but were far from having a lock on the game. We chose to pursue one route to realise that potential (leverage large army against weak foe), when maybe it would have been a more successful strategy to consolidate and build upwards.

Also, Civ IV maintenance acts as a check on larger empires and allows smaller / taller civs to keep pace, but as far as I can see there's really only the Amenity mechanic to do that in Civ VI, and we can all see that Sullla has no issues there. He is ahead now and will continue to draw further ahead.

Oh, and for the record we only actually declared war on 3/6 of our opponents; REM & (briefly) pindicator declared on us and we remained at peace with BGN throughout (not that we didn't plot against all of them at certain points, of course)

[Bacchus]

With Sulla conquering TheArchduke, I need to do my own conquest asap, otherwise he will run away with twice the land of everyone else

And on the fourth day of his imprisonment, Sharp-Eye noted that the cell is missing one of its walls, as we say in Russia.

[Alhambram]

Anyway, likely we get 30-40t of Sulla playing in his sandbox and the other two gradually reporting less as their interest in the game wanes. Someone needs to go start soliciting for PBEM2 now while lurker interest is at it's peak...

Not sure whether i should be one starting PBEM2, however i am willing to join it.

I think that most people are waiting until this PBEM1 is finished to get more complete picture about Civilization 6 multiplayer game-play.

Also some of lurkers are dissatisfied with how things went in PBEM1, especially attack of Yuris against teh which basically gives Sulla the game. Maybe these lurkers are waiting until game finishes and hopes that Sulla gives another try at PBEM. 

Finally there is some complaints about lack of map editor, which means there are two basic choices at this moment: 

- an premade map added with game: four clover map or six snowflake map. Here all players get equal starts except city states which are random. However this also creates possibility of extensive preparation and memorizing all little details about map for example locations of city states or certain resources. Sulla gained huge advantage over others in PBEM1 thanks this possibility

- Play with random map: this mean that none of players have any knowledge about their surroundings what put them equal footing at this aspect unlike four clover map. However an random map carries the risk that one get a bad start (tundra), while others might get excellent start (various 4 food tiles and 3 production tiles nearby capital). The result is that some players might face an uphill battle that they cannot overcome from start.

With proper map editor, people are more likely to join PBEM right now.

[kjn]

Yes, there is an opportunity to end this quickly. But I don't think it's a good opportunity.

What were the advantages that Sulla had in his war against Archduke?

He had a (fleeting) advantage in military tech, by having legions before the war started instead of a few turns into the war. But notice how much more slowly Sullla's offensive became once Archduke got his first legion. Against Yuris and teh, that advantage is for all intents and purposes lost.

He had a much larger military, and that is still the case, though less so.

But the most important advantage was operational, not strategic or tactical. He bypassed where Archduke was somewhat prepared for an attack, and instead performed an offensive that directly targeted Archduke's core. That's not possible against Yuris or teh. Sure, he can smash their current out-dated armies, but that will only mean he will soon face units of similar tech level fighting on their own ground.

[Dreylin]

Yes, there is an opportunity to end this quickly. But I don't think it's a good opportunity.

What were the advantages that Sulla had in his war against Archduke?

He had a (fleeting) advantage in military tech, by having legions before the war started instead of a few turns into the war. But notice how much more slowly Sullla's offensive became once Archduke got his first legion. Against Yuris and teh, that advantage is for all intents and purposes lost.

It was only really slowed by the increase in the city strength though, not by the Legion units themselves - which he dispatched pretty quickly. It also didn't really stop him take a city every turn or every other turn.

He had a much larger military, and that is still the case, though less so.

Hardly less so, since yuris & teh are busy killing each others' units for him ... will there be any left by the time his army would arrive at Frankfurt?

But the most important advantage was operational, not strategic or tactical. He bypassed where Archduke was somewhat prepared for an attack, and instead performed an offensive that directly targeted Archduke's core. That's not possible against Yuris or teh. Sure, he can smash their current out-dated armies, but that will only mean he will soon face units of similar tech level fighting on their own ground.

I'm not saying that it would be a cakewalk, but look how little damage his units took at each stage of the attack. He crashes into both their armies, razes Frankfurt and then sees what he can hit. Press the tech advantage and damage them now so they can't field an equivalent-era army, don't wait for it to arrive.

Of course an important part of this strategy is on the back end; commit to it now and switch out a lot of the infra builds that he's got going and replacing them with more units. Teching Knights and building them. Yuris is going for Horsemen now, not Knights, so he's still an era infront.

[Singaboy]

Finally there is some complaints about lack of map editor, which means there are two basic choices at this moment: 

- an premade map added with game: four clover map or six snowflake map. Here all players get equal starts except city states which are random. However this also creates possibility of extensive preparation and memorizing all little details about map for example locations of city states or certain resources. Sulla gained huge advantage over others in PBEM1 thanks this possibility

- Play with random map: this mean that none of players have any knowledge about their surroundings what put them equal footing at this aspect unlike four clover map. However an random map carries the risk that one get a bad start (tundra), while others might get excellent start (various 4 food tiles and 3 production tiles nearby capital). The result is that some players might face an uphill battle that they cannot overcome from start.

With proper map editor, people are more likely to join PBEM right now.

This

I am not going to play on a map where potential spoilers are available to those who play sufficient shadow games. A random map could really throw you off but might be more exciting.

[oledavy]

Finally there is some complaints about lack of map editor, which means there are two basic choices at this moment: 

- an premade map added with game: four clover map or six snowflake map. Here all players get equal starts except city states which are random. However this also creates possibility of extensive preparation and memorizing all little details about map for example locations of city states or certain resources. Sulla gained huge advantage over others in PBEM1 thanks this possibility

- Play with random map: this mean that none of players have any knowledge about their surroundings what put them equal footing at this aspect unlike four clover map. However an random map carries the risk that one get a bad start (tundra), while others might get excellent start (various 4 food tiles and 3 production tiles nearby capital). The result is that some players might face an uphill battle that they cannot overcome from start.

With proper map editor, people are more likely to join PBEM right now.

This

I am not going to play on a map where potential spoilers are available to those who play sufficient shadow games. A random map could really throw you off but might be more exciting.

I agree. I would like to play a PBEM, but I would like to make it a random map. Having done this song and dance a few times with our Civ5 PBEM games, I'm well aware that it can be frustrating. However, it sounds better than the alternative at this point.

[shinghand]

I think yuris' offensive against teh is going to be unsuccessful, because he intends to field horsemen against archers that will soon become crossbows! Does he have wheel tech? Why not build heavy chariots that can upgrade to become knights? I mean he spent more than 10 turns beelining stirrups.


Teh unfortunately has a poor economy crippled by unit support costs and little to no districts - he desperately needs to build commercial districts. I think he has the time before yuris attacks further as well. Hope he does not put too much focus on encampments. At the same time, I understand his perspective - teh thinks that 1. yuris is gassed and isn't going for further attacks and 2. he needs to stop Sullla, RIGHT away, so his focus in on the immediate and not for 20 turns ahead.