Superdeath wants to be the very best Piñata.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I feel emboldened by all the complaining in PB52 to complain myself, why the hell is there a peak in the BFC?

[superdeath]

and its forested!?

[Charriu]

Don't worry, CtH fixed global warming, by commenting it out. If only reality would be that easy to fix.

[Fintourist]

Thank you pindicator! Any chance for a mapmaker sponsored sandbox so that we don't screw up settings or dimensions? 

For SD's and GKC's consideration: The start looks quite worker tech intensive. Agri, Fishing and Hunting required for food resources, and if unnerfed slavery would not do it already, 6 choppable forests in BFC already is enough for fast BW to have value. Add to the list AH for pasturing pigs just outside our vision and Pottery again for unnerfed slavery..

As mentioned already, you guys choose whatever you want to play! I just wanted to highlight that getting something like Byzantium (Wheel/Mysticism) and going religion first is a pretty certain way to fall behind if other players have similar starts.. In a 6-player game, founding religion later or via random spread should of course also be realistic. Having all the food resources in the 2nd ring also makes it realistic that there will be decent sites for 2nd and 3rd cities where border pops are not an issue.

Micro department is indifferent with regards to leader traits, but having early traits (e.g. IMP) without worker techs might be a bit of a wasteful combo.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Well, if we'd want 2/3 of those starting techs, there's the following options:
America
Dutch
Zulu
Native America
Persia
Greece
Viking

Breaking those down, I'm not interested in any of the latter four. America is very war-mongery, with an interesting musket UU. Dutch are nice on any map with water with a busted naval UU, makes transports not needed, and Dikes are amazing. It just comes too late to make a difference. Zulu is a classic, even if slightly nerfed.

Something to consider in addition to previous pick considerations.

[Fintourist]

The main point of my ramble here was that a bit further down the line you will probably end up wanting all the worker techs and Pottery ASAP and thus early religion will be a compromise. E.g. mysticism is still very much in the cards here in the right company thanks to the +1 commerce.

I'll do a bit of math with regards to tech timings and will then provide you a tier list in an hour or two.. 

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I feel like spain's myst+fishing is actually ok because of the +1 commerce from myst + fish gives commerce, so we should be able to rapidly get the other worker techs.

[superdeath]

Thank you pindicator! Any chance for a mapmaker sponsored sandbox so that we don't screw up settings or dimensions? 

For SD's and GKC's consideration: The start looks quite worker tech intensive. Agri, Fishing and Hunting required for food resources, and if unnerfed slavery would not do it already, 6 choppable forests in BFC already is enough for fast BW to have value. Add to the list AH for pasturing pigs just outside our vision and Pottery again for unnerfed slavery..

As mentioned already, you guys choose whatever you want to play! I just wanted to highlight that getting something like Byzantium (Wheel/Mysticism) and going religion first is a pretty certain way to fall behind if other players have similar starts.. In a 6-player game, founding religion later or via random spread should of course also be realistic. Having all the food resources in the 2nd ring also makes it realistic that there will be decent sites for 2nd and 3rd cities where border pops are not an issue.

Micro department is indifferent with regards to leader traits, but having early traits (e.g. IMP) without worker techs might be a bit of a wasteful combo.

Where are these pigs that you speak of?

Well, if we'd want 2/3 of those starting techs, there's the following options:
America
Dutch
Zulu
Native America
Persia
Greece
Viking

Breaking those down, I'm not interested in any of the latter four. America is very war-mongery, with an interesting musket UU. Dutch are nice on any map with water with a busted naval UU, makes transports not needed, and Dikes are amazing. It just comes too late to make a difference. Zulu is a classic, even if slightly nerfed.

Something to consider in addition to previous pick considerations.

America war-mongery? They dont have the armory here. Unless im missing something. Out of THOSE choices, i like Zulu the best. Maybe coupled with a CRE/EXP Sury? Or Cathy's IMP/CRE? Im probably putting too much value in Creative, but it does make for easy dotmapping without having to waste hammers on monuments or libraries just for the border pop. Zulu's impi are good for quite awhile, and are good counters to any Horse based attack on us while we shit out settlers, with the UB still giving -maintenance right? Although id be fine with throwing AGG on there if we wanted cheaper UB. Im pretty set on Zulu but can be talked into almost any trait combo. 

The main point of my ramble here was that a bit further down the line you will probably end up wanting all the worker techs and Pottery ASAP and thus early religion will be a compromise. E.g. mysticism is still very much in the cards here in the right company thanks to the +1 commerce.

I'll do a bit of math with regards to tech timings and will then provide you a tier list in an hour or two.. 

An hour or two hmmmm?

[Fintourist]

Here is your starting position

Micro department update:

Very good. When I looked into this in the morning I thought this would be an easy job. A clear worker-first opening followed by furious chopping. However, this judgement was totally destroyed when I looked how expensive the starting techs were with these settings/CtH vs. what I expected.

So after a pretty complex mess, here's the promised tier list:

Tier 1: Snowball

• Agriculture/Mining. This is clearly the most explosive start available. Immediate BW followed by Fishing. Settler ready EOT29 with 2 workers, WB and a warrior. 3rd worker ready EOT32 and so on.. So if you ever felt like playing with CKN's this is a spot where picking China (and all the hype about its starting techs) could be justified
  

Tier 2: Step Behind

• Fishing/Mysticism & Mining/Mysticism. Mysticism is a real thing in CtH. These civs can't quite compete with the expansion speed of China (in my quick modelling the start is behind: settler 1 turn, 3 worker turns, 12 foodhammers), but they compensate a fair bit by being almost 50 base beakers ahead by EOT30 via work boat opening. So if you want to grab an early religion, I would not recommend to go straight to Medi or Poly, but these civs probably put you into the best position if you want to reach for one of them after the immediate worker techs.
  
• Agriculture/Fishing & Fishing/Mining. If you want to maximize my workload you should pick one of these. They can do a lesser (but somewhat decent) version of worker-first opening or you can go with a work boat opening that leaves you with less commerce than the aforementioned Mysticism civs... But you have your beakers in more useful techs (if you do not prioritize a religion).
  

Tier 3: Clearly Behind

• Hunting/Mining.  You can still brute-force a reasonable worker-first-into-BW opening and simply ignore the fish during the early turns. You'll end up with a slightly better foodhammer position than Mysticism civs above, but not enough to compensate for the commerce deficit
  

Tier 4: Would already avoid

• Agriculture/Mysticism. Agriculture is just a bit too cheap of a tech, which causes WB openings to fall a bit short (ie. too slow to BW after Fishing). Might barely work with FIN.
  
• Hunting/Fishing. Simply weaker than Agri/Fishing with our start.
  
• Hunting/Agriculture. Starting with two cheapest techs will cause problems in getting Fishing + BW in timely manner.
  

Tier 5: Playing catch-up

• Hunting/Mysticism. Mysticism commerce does not compensate enough for the fact that we would start without any of the Agri/Fishing/Mining/BW, which in perfect world would be our first 4 techs. And Rusten and Hitru already picked the Aztecs for arguably the strongest UB in the mod.
  
• Wheel + whatever. Wheel is expensive, but that does not cut it when our start benefits from so many other early techs. Wheel starts can be made to work, but if you can find something you like from the top 2/3 tiers I would just pass these civs. Noble and Gaspar also already removed the Cataphract temptation. (Sidenote: If you pick EXP, Wheel Civs become a bit more interesting though.)
  

I obviously did not look into all the possible variations or spend days with this etc. so the above list can be challenged. Say if you want me to reconsider the placing of your favorite civ.. And anyways SD and GKC: Pick whatever you like and let's try to make the most of it. I don't think you can select anything that puts you out of the running, but of course I imagine easier life with better starting techs..

Some leader trait implications:

• IMP and (to a minor extent) SPI will speed up all openings
  
• FIN has (minor) synergy with aforementioned WB openings
  
• EXP does not like diverting to early religion (potentially Fishing or Mining with Mysticism), it wants Pottery and granaries..
  

[superdeath]

Joao of China?