[PB73 SPOILERS] scooter's Oracle

[scooter]

I've some experience with Civil Service, just from playing late-era FFH2. It is pretty significant - but is it better then the other options? I guess +50% commerce is quite a bit better then +50% gold. But 5t less on a worker to start off does play well.

The real catch with Civil Service is it's power is heavily concentrated in the first 50 turns and then it gradually cools, as it provides no value to any other cities. And of course, other players will be able to research it before long. Once you get to the Knights-era warfare you might not even want to be in Bureaucracy anymore due to costs + Vassalage. So taking it is purely about turbo’ing ahead on growth curve relative to everyone else and hoping it’s enough. Also I could really “feel” the +50% commerce in the early turns. You can basically tech whatever you’d like. Given that no wonders are nerfed here and wonders are often tech-constrained, there’s a lot of options. I wonder though if it’s constrained by capital quality a bit. That’s the one question. I don’t know if it will work with all of the starts? We’ll see what is available.

Edit: We don't get free first-to bonuses, do we?

No, we do not.

Banks also aren't doubled by FIN. ORG factories (or German Assembly lines) are only 84h, so basically normal forges - would be very strong in Medieval, but losing somewhat until you get there.

I noticed the Bank thing last night actually. Really has been a long time since I played Vanilla BtS I guess. I don’t think Banking is necessarily totally out, but it makes Financial not matter as much for it. I thought about ORG Factories, but then I wondered if Assembly Line is actually better than just taking Metal Casting. Although, where did you get the 84h figure from? Should be more like 125h with ORG. I’m not totally convinced this is even better than just taking Metal Casting + IND as your tech, not that I’m really considering that. If Infantry were buildable without Rifling, maybe.

Aztec bio seems the most fun option to me, though who knows if its the strongest.

Yeah, Aztecs are also a civ I’ve never played, so it’s interesting for sure. There’s little caveats with them. For example, Jaguar might be helpful if I need to rush an Artillery neighbor, but also the -1 Strength stings a little if they actually get units out. Mysticism/Hunting is pretty bad starting techs, especially because you’re probably only taking Biology if you see a lot of farmable tiles. That said, you definitely don’t need Aztecs for Biology. I think someone providing happy access might make a lot of sense, for example. I definitely wonder about Mayans for example with Holkans if I need to rush and Ball Courts for happy, just to pick a random one off the top of my head. Pyramids seems very important for Biology overall.

[Qgqqqqq]

Oh, I will have started the game on Quick, and been looking through the tech tree with that.

Funnily enough, if someone else took steam power you could trade with them for working coal plants

[scooter]

Ok, we pick 4th. I have no idea if this is a good spot because this setup is sort of working as intended. Overall tech-wise I'm starting to lean towards something that influences growth curve. Civil Service is the big one there, but Biology and Steam Power are up there if the start allows for it. So my inclination is generally to take start/tech with picks 4/7 and then use civ/leader picks the time through the order. That'll give me time to see the way the draft is shaking out and react accordingly.

Of course, if the starts underwhelm OR people start snapping them all up in the first 3 picks, that would obviously affect the strategy.

[Cyneheard]

If the first three people all take the same thing (likely start or tech), we probably float that one to our 3rd/4th pick.

But I think we'll see the top two picks go start -> tech unless the best start is really medium.

However, our "Do Not Pass" choice is Civil Service, I think - if that's somehow available 4th, we take it period and let Yuris figure out what they want.

[scooter]

If the first three people all take the same thing (likely start or tech), we probably float that one to our 3rd/4th pick.

But I think we'll see the top two picks go start -> tech unless the best start is really medium.

However, our "Do Not Pass" choice is Civil Service, I think - if that's somehow available 4th, we take it period and let Yuris figure out what they want.

I think this is about right, yeah. I sort of have 3 plans in mind that all sound appealing, but they may not all be possible. In order of priority:


1) Civil Service + strong capital. If this is somehow possible, I think it's the play

2) Steam Power or Biology + capital that synergizes with it. So if at pick 4 plan #1 looks like it won't work, but there's a capital available that matches those techs really well, this really appeals.

3) Gunpowder + France is my preferred military combination and would be a fun fallback plan.


Overall I'd prefer to bet against the military tech path, but I'm not opposed to changing plans based on how things unfold.

[scooter]

Whew, those starts. First off, thanks Tarkeel/Krill, that's pretty much exactly what I was hoping for in terms of being an interesting decision. The range in quality is wide enough that it's going to make this draft fascinating in trade-offs. A+.

For reference, here's the starts so we have them in thread.

Here are the starts, roughly ordered from best to worst. Map-script in use is Big and Small, and will be balanced for luxuries.

Start 1:



Start 2:



Start 3:



Start 4:



Start 5:



If for some reasone these don't fit your expectations at all, I can remake a new set in a week or so.

I'll need to dig into these a bit more later and I'll think about each one individually, but some quick instant reactions.


* Start 1 is bonkers, and I'll be absolutely shocked if we even have the chance to pick it at 4. 2 seems somewhat unlikely to fall to us, but it's maybe possible? It feels like at 4 we're going to either have to take Start 3 and hope a tech we like is still there at pick 7, OR we take our tech and resign ourselves to the fact that Yuris is likely to take Start 3 on the 5-6 pick swing. I could be way off on this, I just wonder if there may be a lot of priority on the starting area.

* Steam Power + Dutch looks really good with some of these capitals, so stock is trending up on that tech. Start 3 in particular is absolutely bananas with it - seven lighthouseable lake tiles + lake Fish + Dike + Moai would be nuts. Take a Financial leader too and enjoy your blizzard of 3/2/3 tiles. I think for Steam Power to really work though it has to be paired with Start 2 or 3.

* I think it's important to not get Start 5. That looks rough relative to the rest and the synergies seem thin.

* I notice a lot of water + confirmation that this is Big and Small. That also pumps up the Steam Power/Dutch play, but it also boosts Vikings (paired with Civil Service) a LOT. I view the Vikings as by far the best water civ in the game which might be slightly controversial given the existence of Dutch/Portugal? Water also pumps up Financial quite a bit as well, while stuff like Expansive/Organized get moderate boosts (Harbors/Lighthouses) when they're already good traits.

* Biology for starts 1 and 4 is interesting. To an extent 2 as well. Seems really weak for 3 and 5. Cannot blind pick Biology I don't think, but it becomes an option if I can lock a compatible start and more favorable techs are gone.

* I wonder whether happiness will be an issues with some of these. There's absurd food, but early on there's a happy cap. It's a slight bump for Constitution I think, even though I wonder if that would be too slow.


Will take a closer look later. Curious if anything else jumps out as you guys.

[Krill]

Thank Tarkeel, not me, he did the heavy lifting.

[Tarkeel]

Note that I posted the wrong version of start 4, so you should update the quote

[scooter]

Note that I posted the wrong version of start 4, so you should update the quote

Thanks, I've edited this in. Only difference I could spot was a moved Wheat, which means moving 2N for plains hill costs you the Wheat. Pretty real nerf I think.


Anyway, I thought for sure we wouldn't see a pick for a day or two, but then Luddite brought down the house by first picking Artillery. I'm fully prepared to watch in horror as Rocketry and Gunpowder get picked next . Anyway, the implications for us are that we are guaranteed one of two things to happen:

1) Guaranteed at worst Start 3

OR

2) Civil Service is still there at pick 4 and we're guaranteed at worst Start 4 at pick 7 to go with it.


If picks 2-3 before me are Starts 1-2, then at #4 I would be inclined to pick Start 3, which means I'd be guaranteed either Civil Service or Steam Power, which would both be super strong on Start 3. If folks keep picking techs, then I'd be quite happy to take an even better start as Starts 1-2 can both be played a million different ways.

[Tarkeel]

Note that I posted the wrong version of start 4, so you should update the quote

Thanks, I've edited this in. Only difference I could spot was a moved Wheat, which means moving 2N for plains hill costs you the Wheat. Pretty real nerf I think.

Correct. Well, the forest also moved.