Adventure 51 - Hannibal's Own Medicine - CLOSING DAY

[SevenSpirits]

It's all info you could get in advance, but in a strategy game that's more or less everything. There's no special strategy I could use to defeat a top Halo or even Starcraft player. But if I can tap into Deep Blue's mind I can play chess a whole heck of a lot better even without any "new info."

I buy T-Hawk's argument (though I don't agree with it) but this is just a ridiculous comparison. I could have a paper checklist of things to look for every turn - is a city growing next turn, did someone else get a tech I want, etc. - and follow it for the exact same result as BUG. This takes no skill whatsoever, just time. And unlike Halo or Starcraft (and to a lesser extent, chess), Civ IV SP is not a real-time game - the time cost is external to the game.

And Deep Blue?? Good lord, we're talking about consolidating interface information onto the main interface screen here. If Civ IV didn't have a Detailed City Info option (the one that displays time to growth / build completion on the main map) and there was a mod that added it, would that be like consulting a chess engine too? I really hate the idea that being able to deal with a crappy interface well and/or enjoying stupid repetitive tasks is some sort of skill that is important to measure. I'd rather measure judgment.

And I'd rather minimize the conflict between the goals of trying to have fun and trying to do well. If part of the shark strategy is to check every corner of the interface every turn, playing your best is less fun.

[Ceiliazul]

I buy T-Hawk's argument (though I don't agree with it) but this is just a ridiculous comparison.
...
If part of the shark strategy is to check every corner of the interface every turn, playing your best is less fun.

Sunrise, I agree that Lymond has overstepped.

Seven, I agree with everything you said...

Maybe a better analogy for Sunrise's case would be a chess game that highlighted in red every piece with more attackers than protectors. In that example you're both right: the feature reduces the realtime cost of playing, but it also gives an undeserved leg up for the lazy or unskilled.

Here's the thing. The caliber of player who can't/won't spend the time required to gather that info also isn't going to plan roads and chops for a settler that isn't even built yet. BUG makes efficiency easier, but it doesn't make a bad player good. I agree with Seven in that regard.

I stripped BUG from the save because tradition counts for a lot here at Realms. If Mod approval was done by popular vote, I'd vote to allow BUG. Until it's apprved I'll follow the rules.

[SevenSpirits]

Maybe a better analogy for Sunrise's case would be a chess game that highlighted in red every piece wth more attackers than protectors. In that example you're both right: the feature reduces the realtime cost of playing, but it also gives an undeserved leg up for the lazy or unskilled.

Yes, that's a reasonable analogy. That would be derivable information in chess, just as BUG shows derivable information in Civ IV. However I want to point out that these are very different games. Chess is a game with a few simple rules, and the entire game is figuring out what the implications of those rules are.

Civ IV on the other hand is a much, much more complicated game. And unlike chess it already displays massive amounts of derivable information. For example, the number of turns to complete a warrior that is displayed when it's in the queue is derivable from the cost of a warrior, your overflow production, your tiles (and specialists) worked (their terrain, features, and improvements), the type of thing a warrior is (military unit), the civics you're in, your settled great people, whether you are in a golden age, the buildings you have in the city in question, and other things like Angkor Wat in another city if you're working a priest. (Forgive me if I missed anything. ) No one would want to play civ if you had to figure all that out for yourself though. It's not ACTUALLY supposed to be a really complex exercise in arithmetic and data lookup. And thus Civ IV shows you all sorts of derivative information.

Imagine a really complex chess variant, with a board as big as a stadium, but the same tiny squares, and thousands of pieces. You don't have to walk around it for everything because the makers of the game put video cameras on all sides, so you can just look at the live feeds of the whole board from a single control room, and plan your move from there. But there are parts of the board without video coverage because they're in the very middle and the cameras are only on the edges, so you have to walk to the middle yourself to see if anything's going on there. And now some upstart comes along and says "here, I've invented a device for hanging a camera above the board. They're free! Now you don't have to go traipse out to the middle of the board just to see if your opponent made a move there." And the response is: "Don't be silly! Remembering to check the middle of the board every turn is a skill! Why would we allow people to put their cameras there? What's left for the players to distinguish themselves by if the ENTIRE board is directly observable without walking?"

[lymond]

I overstepped...wow...c'mon! I guy can't make a suggestion around here. I am glad to see that some people are backing me up - at least partly. However, although I see all this as a good argument, it is clear that it won't go anywhere and I won't belabor it myself. I apologize for not being clear on the history and tradition around here...please point me to where I can find more info on this so I won't step in "it" again. Regardless, no one is going to convince me that the use of BUG in SP games offers anyone unfair advantages. Ceilaizul makes a good point just above "BUG does not make bad players good".

As for Sunrise, your getting snippy with me is uncalled for. My posts were meant as a suggestion and not meant to completely rock the RB boat. I explicitly mentioned SP and not MP by the way. Mods are complicated enough for MP besides offering any "perceived" advantage. Taking personal offense at my suggestion is just downright silly. My suggestion in part was to possibly liven up the SP side of things which, again, does not seem to have a lot of participation, as others have mentioned as well. RB seems like a great site as I've observed for quite some time. Still, that does not mean even the best of sites should not be open to some change. Everything evolves....

[Ceiliazul]

That is...if anyone here cares

Lymond, if nothing else, we've disproved this allegation.

I do hope you'll stick around, despite what must seem like a militant welcoming committee here. One of the things that I was drawn to was the variant options: creative tweaks or outright upheavals of the game to push new and innovative strategies.

Even mods are fair game, and I'm sure if you stick around you'll find some games that fit your niche. You can even help us evolve... but maybe not in your first 10 posts. :neenernee

[LoneWolfEburg]

I'll play it, for better or for worse.

[Ruff_Hi]

Wow - lots of discussion on BUG. I did put together a Mod Approval Applicaiton for BUG v2.1 here. Sullla provided a very nice and detailed description and review.

You can also identify what in BUG you like and carve it out into a stand alone mod (after going through the mod approval process - see Field of View application).

[Tatan]

Most Elite Unit: 5,3,1 (1st-3rd most XP on one unit)

Question: Does this mean most exp EVER on one unit, or most exp on a unit at the game's end? (as in what if your most elite unit dies?)

Fun map!

[Ceiliazul]

Question: Does this mean most exp EVER on one unit, or most exp on a unit at the game's end? (as in what if your most elite unit dies?)

Fun map!

Most EXP you can get a screenshot of, even if it died before game end.

[Compromise]

Game complete.

I've been out of action for a while. Is imageshack still a decent place to upload screenshots for a report?