Kuro's Bizarre Adventure (Kuro spoiler thread)

[Kuro]

A quick examination of Fast Worker first as well:

Turn 1: 7/75
Turn 2: 14/75
Turn 3: 21/75
Turn 4: 28/75
Turn 5: 35/75
Turn 6: 42/75
Turn 7: 49/75
Turn 8: 55/75
Turn 9: 62/75
Turn 10: 68/75
Turn 11: 74/75
Turn 12: 81/75

12T to finish with our 7HPT max. We can finish Fishing in 6T exactly, as seen, and Agriculture is 46 beakers.

Turn 8: 10/46
Turn 9: 20/46
Turn 10: 30/46
Turn 11: 40/46
Turn 12: 50/46

So we can have Fishing + Agriculture on T12 + The Fast Worker on T12. In exchange, however, we do not have the Fish and we will have to wait longer for food to come online: We can begin farming the same turn we move into it and finish the Farm on T17 (5T for all farms, yes? I can't remember if it changes with each type of grain but I know Wheat is 5T). We presumably either work the Plains Hill into a Worker for longer or just the unimproved Rice. By contrast, if we Work Boat first and work the Fish to grow...

The Fish will be a 6 food tile (2 base + 3 for the Work Boats + 1 extra for Agricultural), it takes 22 food to grow to Size 2, we would begin working it T7.

Turn 7: 6/22
Turn 8: 12/22
Turn 9: 18/22
Turn 10: 24/22

We would grow to Size 2 on Turn 10 (Sadly, working the Rice only puts us at 21/22, so we do not get to grow 1T faster). We would then be able to work the Plains HIll + Fish on a Fast Worker. We would be making 4 FPT (-2 for the Plains Hill making no food and being Size 2) in addition to our previous 7 HPT, so 11 total production per turn on the Fast Worker. This would mean...

Turn 10: 11/75
Turn 11: 22/75
Turn 12: 33/75
Turn 13: 44/75
Turn 14: 55/75
Turn 15: 66/75
Turn 16: 77/75

Getting the Fast Worker on T16, which is one turn before we would finish the Farm if we went Fast Worker first. In essence, Work Boat first trades the Fish for the Farm (A good trade, most likely, because the Fish is a 6/0/2 and the Rice is 5/0/1), in addition to the Capital being Size 2 faster. Another bonus not seen here is that we would be working the Fish with it's 2 commerce the whole time, bumping us to 12 commerce per turn during that time. Let's say our tech path is Agriculture -> Bronze Working after Fishing. We will go Agriculture first here.

Turn 7: 12/46
Turn 8: 24/46
Turn 9: 34/46
Turn 10: 46/46

We finish Agriculture 1T sooner by going Fish first as well, discovering it on T10. Bronze Working's cost is now 174 beakers:

Turn 11: 12/174
Turn 12: 24/174
Turn 13: 36/174
Turn 14: 48/174
Turn 15: 60/174
Turn 16: 72/174 (Worker completes)
Turn 17: 84/174
Turn 18: 96/174
Turn 19: 108/174
Turn 20: 120/174
Turn 21: 133/174 (Worker completes Farm, work Farm for 1 commerce, now 13 CPT)
Turn 22: 146/174
Turn 23: 159/174
Turn 24: 172/174
Turn 25: 185/174

We would finish Bronze Working roughly on T25, most likely on T24 because we would only need to work 3 extra commerce for that and could work, say, the Rice to grow with it's 1 CPT with our second citizen. After that we could then go for Polytheism while our Worker chops out another Fast Worker, go into a Settler (We would be finishing a Warrior sometime between the Worker's finish and the next Worker, possibly have a second semi-built) and The Wheel -> discounted Pottery. This seems pretty good to me. These numbers are probably not exact because I have to do them from memory unlike what I usually do (Which is snag numbers from in game and then it is simple math from there usually). However, i don't see any way Fast Worker first beats Work Boat first anyway, so we should probably micro along Work Boat lines. Feel free to point out my probably atrocious math skills, please: I haven't done hardcore micro in a long time.

[BRickAstley]

Does the PRO 50% worker discount not apply to fast workers too?

[Kuro]

Does the PRO 50% worker discount not apply to fast workers too?

The Worker discount only works on hammers, right? 5 hammers + 2.5 rounded to 2 = 7 HPT after Productive bonus. If we have another Forested Plains Hill in range then at Size 2 we can work it for 8 hammers + 4 = 12 HPT, but at size 1 we max out at 7 HPT.

[wetbandit]

Another clarity point, let's change T1 to T0 since we'll be settling in place. But there's the possibility of banking some extra food in the capital while the WB is built and/or to generate another coin if it's necessary to finish fishing on schedule.

The overflow gets divided back out by the bonus, so we're potentially losing a hammer to rounding if we finish with an odd number. Moreover, I think I'd be willing to trade some hammers for food if it speeds up growing to size 2. For instance:

T0: WB 6/30 Food 1/22
T1: WB 12/30 Food 2/22
T2: WB 18/30 Food 3/22
T3: WB 24/30 Food 4/22
T4: WB 30/30 Food 5/22
T5: Move WB; Fishing Finishes EOT; Start Worker/Warrior X (not sure yet); work ?
T6: Net Fish, Work 6/0/2; Build Warrior Food 11/22
T7: Food 17/22 Build Warrior
T8: Food 23/22 Build Warrior 6/15
T9: Grow to size 2; start FW; work 6/0/2 and 0/3/0 for 11f/h into worker

Not sure if it makes sense to grow, but we have the tiles to potentially support it. If we spend a turn on the worker on T5, it doesn't shave any time off of the worker, which will be done EOT15. Starting the worker immediately is 9f/h after fish is netted.

T5: 7/75
T6: 16/75
...
T13: 79/75

Remains to be seen though if FW first is superior. I feel like I'm forgetting something about a citizen eating food while a worker is being built, though.

[wetbandit]

The lurker thread is also free to ask for compensation for head injuries suffered in the course of reading my micro fumbling.

[Kuro]

The lurker thread is also free to ask for compensation for head injuries suffered in the course of reading my micro fumbling.

Don't worry, I'm sure they're already collecting insurance on my psuedo-microing.

The 1/2/0 plan does seem superior, I didn't think to consider that the Productive bonus would be able to do that, I'm too used to my micro bonus being 25% and not 50% on Workers. I think that looks the best and I can't see much in the way of Fast Worker first beating it because of the Fish tile being so good. I think it is best to grow before building the Fast Worker: 11 Foodhammers per turn equates to a 7T Worker (11, 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 75 hammers needed), which makes up for the time growing (If we grew on T9 we'd finish it T16) while giving us the bonus of being Size 2. We should also very quickly be able to Fish + Rice to grow and then presumably start whipping or Settlering or what have you (SInce obv. we can't whip until we get BW).

I think a tenative plan of Fishing -> Agriculture -> Bronze Working -> Polytheism or Meditation (Depending on if one has been used for a religion) -> The Wheel -> Pottery seems good, unless you think we can delay the religion until past The Wheel or even past Pottery and still get it. The religion would be nice though to eat into Charismatic's benefits and to make popping borders easier. It would also allow us to use Organized Religion, though another option would be to not go after Hinduism or Buddhism and target Judaism...but that is very risky and if we get beat we don't get anything.

[Kuro]

Although, actually, maybe Fast Worker before growing is worth it, what we'd need to see is which one gets to Size 3 faster, but actually having the Rice faster might be worth it because we grow so fast...

[WilliamLP]

Toku of India? Wow, now _that_ is an intriguing pick. Possibly the most interesting (and potentially powerful) of all? Nice job in the selection phase, good luck to you guys in the game.

[wetbandit]

Thanks William. I think for AGR/PRO India to work, we'll need to build an early advantage. The traits peter out in effectiveness in the mid-game as more tiles which don't trigger our bonuses are worked. I'd love to see this civ get to the Biology-Replaceable Parts-State Property era, though, when we could theoretically have a huge rebound.

I think a tenative plan of Fishing -> Agriculture -> Bronze Working -> Polytheism or Meditation (Depending on if one has been used for a religion) -> The Wheel -> Pottery seems good, unless you think we can delay the religion until past The Wheel or even past Pottery and still get it. The religion would be nice though to eat into Charismatic's benefits and to make popping borders easier. It would also allow us to use Organized Religion, though another option would be to not go after Hinduism or Buddhism and target Judaism...but that is very risky and if we get beat we don't get anything.

We are one of two civs starting with Mysticism, HitAnyKey being the other. I feel pretty good about being able to land one of the early three religions with the increased costs of Mysticism. We'll see how the land looks, but Fish->Agri->BW is a good start.

[Kuro]

We do need to not squander the early game with our traits. The good thing is that Tokugawa of India is pretty much by far the best at it in the game. In addition, our traits don't totally peter out in the late game/mid game, as the production bonus means we'll keep getting a production lead and the the food does help long term too, Fast Workers never go obsolete after all. But we are definitely more early game. We'll go Fish -> Agri -> BW with the 1/2/0 plan and start checking where to go after BW a bit before BW ends?