[SPOILERS] Rusten prepares to face the music

[Rusten]

^Alright, thanks for the quick response!

@vandale: That should mean like BtS IIRC except hunting is more expensive and archery cheaper. But really, just get the mod installed -- it's not hard!

[vandale]

We agree, then, about the starting philosophy.
Regarding the mines, I don't mean they're bad improvements early on. But I found interesting that their yield towards settlers was so low compared with alternatives. The ivory is that strong.
Then again, mining is the natural action after farming, in wait for BW. Even a marginal gain is a gain.

Yes, I'll install the mod. I have this disease, you know, that makes me allergoonic to the computer technics.
Worker at size 2 seems strong. I'm not big on the settler at size 3. I'll still test it when the time comes.

[Rusten]

Size 2 worker experiment featuring:

-mining-bw-wheel
-size 2 worker (duh!)
-size 4 settler
-1st warrior finishing before starting worker, 2nd finishing before starting settler (good scouting)
-T31 1st settler (on the dot -- exactly enough hammers)
-T35 2nd settler if
a) we chop another forest (requires 1 worker)
b) grow to 5 (2t) and chop 2 forests (requires both workers and also includes a switch to slavery)

Both mines are riverside in real game. Just didn't bother fixing the river in the sim.

-There's no time for 2 chops before 1st settler in any size 2 worker mining-bw scenario. Moving onto both a hill and a forest saves worker turns as it serves both purposes from 1 tile.
-Further one worker can follow the settler to its new city and improve its tiles. The second stays behind and chops the 2nd settler (and then follows). But at this point it depends on the map.

Let me know if you want the starting save instead of making your own. It's with correct tech costs this time around.
We should be getting pottery around T38 if we beeline it, but we may need hunting first for our other cities.

[Rusten]

It's possible that the mines are a distraction (as per usual). They were initially being considered because of the religious path with its late BW but that's no longer the prime target. With habitual use of the whip our naked flood plains can compete with mines even before granary. As long as we chop and/or whip the settlers and spend a minimal amount of turns building them with food there's no need for mines and we still get full use of the IMP bonus. Furthermore, there's so much food surplus that even with mines the ideal method of production would still be minimal amount of turns with settler queued in production. We also have near unlimited happy cap in the beginning so whip stacks are not a big concern.

If we don't go for religion we have early BW (3160/3120 BC). The earliest settler timing I got was T26 (1 worker), but even with 2 workers it pops out at T28 IIRC. The micro gets a lot more complicated with finding the ideal whip/chop timings and avoiding multiple turns of settler production, but it seems stronger overall. If you're going to sim any time soon I recommend starting here.

[vandale]

Well, I've done did it wrong more than one time.
I'm going blind when it comes to civ4 mods and I've tried about all the combinations I could think of, yet, I couldn't solve the puzzle.
Would a kind soul explain me really gentle how to install the R2R mod and what to do with its files, folders ? ex : there's a .dll file that's staggering me...

This is my best result :

BugInit - cannot find xml file for mod init

[Rusten]

Try uninstalling BUG. I also had this issue. They don't mix.
Other than that it's real easy. Just place the whole thing in the mods (program files) folder.

[vandale]

Ok, sure, I have BUG in Custom Assets and switch BULL on/off when I need to play with BUFFY.
I'll manage, thanks !

[vandale]

Installed and working, thanks

I'm looking at post 33 for reference.

- How do you produce a warrior before starting on the worker ?
I grow to size 2 with 2 food in the bin and 13/15H in the warrior.
Do you sacrifice a food and work the ivory an extra turn ?
It seems like that would be worth it. I've run into a difficulty, growing from 3 to 4 and lacking 1 food to shave off a turn. So, lacking 2 food would likely not matter much.

- You make a good point @ unlimited happiness.
Starting with a happy cap at 7 certainly skew things a little.
Most particularly : 1pop whips are very affordable (into worker/granary for sure but possibly other items, too).

- I still don't like much that you improve the 2 mines.
Sure, they're riverside but the commerce is only that : incidental. Production is what matters at this point.
The 1st mine doesn't add any hammers compared with the ivory tile. Only the 2nd mine does because it compares with a plains forest.
So, size 3 Mecca doesn't need a mine ; size 4 Mecca can use a single mine.
The +1 commerce costs 5 worker turns, which is huge. (discounting the chop)
Chopping, possibly pre-chopping, or even possibly farming some floodplains should be better.

- I like, however, that you're being rather conservative with your chopping :
3 chops tops by t35 is respectable.
Unless we share an agriculture resource, we need to send a worker along with the first settler ;
Even if we share an agriculture resource, city 2 will grow in 4-5 turns and sending a worker along makes a lot of sense.
---> I don't expect keeping both workers by Mecca to chop the second settler to be better.

- do I understand right that in your a) scenario to turn 35, you didn't find the opportunity to switch into slavery ?

- I agree that going Hunting --> AH after Bronze is a respectable line.
We should keep it in mind. Revealiing copper and then horses can have strat value when planting cities. It also gives production.
And... I'd much rather improve the ivory than the second mine. FFHHHC is solid.
Hunting --> AH completes t37, maybe. So after the 1st two settlers. A 3rd worker could improve the tile.
Choice should depend on scouting and the food sources that are revealed (pigs, someone, anyone ?)
Hunting --> Wheel could work, too.
Starting on granaries should be much better than improving the ivory. (Then, horses remain an unknown)


Give me some minutes to gather things and I'll give you some screens showing an alternative ?
I've tried settler at size 3 with double chop. Works alright with growth timing but it delays size 4 and, thus, loses some production on the other end of the spectrum.

[vandale]

I think I like chopping 4 times : 2x double chops.
Some refining can be made : what tiles are chopped first (a hill is chopped last to follow with mining).

Reasons :

t23, worker is done (warrior out already, it's a good move), Bronze is done :
both chops can come in time for growth to size 3.
Note : there's an extra worker turn for the northern worker. I mined 1 turn but farming is also an option.

Gives t26 size 3 + double chops :

--> settler out t29 with Mecca size 3.
note : southern worker unlikely to chop that particular forest.
At this point, you're mining forested hills. The question is : why delay the chops ?

Then, t29 you get this interesting option :
(both chops come in next turn )

a) Second warrior out t30, 2nd settler out t33
--> settler timing doesn't change if we share rice/corn with city two
--> easier on Mecca's growth, especially if a food source is shared with city 2.
b) 2nd settler out t32, 2nd warrior out t33.

Mecca needs some of its own food to grow to 4 but it can lend corn/rice for 2 turns without it being an issue.
Workers are : 1 turn late to follow the 1st settler ; 1 turn in advance to follow the 2nd settler.

I think this is maybe too chop-heavy but maybe you'll appreciate the settler timings.
If the corn is shared, city 2 is size 2 by t35.
Both cities coming up a couple of turns earlier somewhat makes up for the delay in the capital's growth.


I need to go, working soon

[Rusten]

x-post

I agree that mines are suspicious. After the initial stage they don't come into play again until near double-digit size cities when whipping is no longer profitable. That's a lot of worker turns for improvements that will be largely unused for a long time. I may not have been clear enough in post #34 --- I'm already of the mindset that chopping is stronger than mining, so these are the simulations I'm the most interested in. A T26 (or 28) 1st settler is also huge in comparison with T31.

Just working floods from size 4 onwards should be fine until pottery. I'd probably be ok with chopping every forest, I'm sure we can find other ones for wonders. Use worker turns for chopping now --> get plenty of workers/settlers --> use worker turns for cottages when pottery is in.

And yes, I do 1 turn of ivory before the corn is improved. Easily worth it for the scouting information as it doesn't delay any important growth as far as I can tell.