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I vote for not limiting the number of retorts. One of the best things about the games is being able to try out loads of different builds, restricting it would make the game less rich in my opinion.
Also I always think the casting cost and research discounts should start at the 8th book and not the 9th.
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You are right but things that break the game don't really make the game richer in a way that's healthy for the game. Sure, 6 retorts is not as bad as the 11th book was in the original game but it's still quite bad. Picking more retorts is usually stronger, so if we allow 5+ retorts, then playing fewer will be done less (on higher difficulties, at least) which actually makes the game less rich.
It's also a "trap" since picking too many retorts, if not aiming for an early victory by abusing the early advantage, will usually lead to luck based wins and losses (you have very few spells so you either get good ones or not), and that's pretty bad experience if you actually end up playing that way.
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What you're saying is true if you see the game purely from a competitive point of view, but it's also fun as a sandbox game where you try out interesting combinations. I tend to play a few serious games and then do a few where I try some new crazy strategy or a game where I do something silly like I'm not allowed to cast any spells at all and just rely on retorts. It would be a shame to not have these options anymore.
Also if retorts are stronger than books, then maybe the balance could be shifted a little towards the books somehow instead of adding restrictions. Maybe adding more fortress mana from each book at the start of the game could help and bringing back earlier book bonuses.
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The sandbox is fun because the game is competitive, there wouldn't be any fun in trying stuff if it was pointless as victory is assured.
August 25th, 2018, 07:03
(This post was last modified: August 25th, 2018, 07:06 by Nelphine.)
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Not completely true. I've got a group of friends that play openciv, solo, with 0 AI.
They also play Ascendancy, which has possibly the worst ai to the point there may as well not be an AI - and no multiplayer option.
They literally play to build, and wanted to know if they could do that with CoM as well, because they loved the magic aspects, and the description of the lairs. But they tried it, and the game is about the conoetition; It isn't their cup of tea.
@mrbiscuits
Problem is by definition retorts start almost immediately, and books provide potential. From a competitive game, stacking 6 retorts is often better than taking an extra 2 or 3 books, so you can play a crazy fast rush build. If you're planning to win by year 1408, then you don't need any rare or very rare spells, and you can probably even get away with no uncommon spells.
So balancing retorts with books is not a simple task.
That being said, if you can come up with ideas how to balance retorts, so that the draconian archer video (or something like it) isn't possible, I'd be very interested to hear it.
August 25th, 2018, 07:52
(This post was last modified: August 25th, 2018, 07:53 by zitro1987.)
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One way to balance spellbook vs retort stacking:
*shift some of initial skill bonus per book from early books to higher number of books
*shift some of initial power fortress bonus per book from early books to higher number of books
Idea: Magic market and starting settlers weakened 10+ book builds as the 21 power of 11 books (24 power of 12 books) can be easily compensated by 2 magic markets.
Retorts can particularly help early games, while spellbooks can particularly help later on with greater variety of advanced spells. If spellbooks further help early games, then retort stacking may not be as attractive thus not needing a limit.
Example:
1 spell book: 1 power, 1 skill
2 spell book: 2 power, 2 skill
3 spell book: 3 power, 3 skill
4 spell book: 4 power, 4 skill
5 spell book: 6 power, 6 skill
6 spell book: 8 power, 8 skill
7 spell book: 10 power, 10 skill
8 spell book: 13 power, 13 skill
9 spell book: 16 power, 16 skill
10 spell book: 20 power, 20 skill
11 spell book: 24 power, 24 skill
12 spell book: 30 power, 30 skill
Another example is for fortress to earn extra research points if higher books:
8 spell book: same power/skill as CoM but +2 research points
9 spell book: same power/skill as CoM but +4 research points
10 spell book: same power/skill as CoM but +7 research points
11 spell book: same power/skill as CoM but +10 research points
12 spell book: same power/skill as CoM but +14 research points
August 25th, 2018, 08:28
(This post was last modified: August 25th, 2018, 08:32 by Nelphine.)
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Except just taking cult leader + heavenly light gives you 1.5 extra power on the 3rd to 4th turn of the game. Then build 2 more cities, 2 more heavenly lights, and by turn.. 12? Cult leader is giving you 4.5 extra power. That's as good as the 10th and 11th books from turn ~12; and it increases throughout the game. 4 cities with heavenly light, shrines, parthenons, and 1 cathedral, means cult leader is giving you 21 power; far more than any number of books is giving you. Sure that's still a delayed growth, but it's still a growth that is much faster than the rares and very rares you get from books. And cult leader is a 'weak' retort until the unrest portion actually matters (and even building the religious buildings isn't an early game move, I've usually got dozens of buildings before I build my first religious building). It's not one of the retorts that are full on early game; Conjuror, Warlord, Omniscient, Sage master*, Specialist, Tactician, Spellweaver, Myrran these are the retorts that you stack near the beginning; once you've got those, you take Cult leader, Astrologer, Alchemy, Channeler, Archmage to amplify those early ones and make them even stronger, and to give yourself more long term strength. (Artificer, Runemaster, Guardian, Famous, Charismatic are far too narrow in focus.) *Sage master requires very particular uncommons and plans around those uncommons; but for instance getting giant spiders on turn.. 6 or whatever it is.. is one way to use it.
That being said, increasing the starting power/skill may be helpful anyway. However, that won't do anything to change the retort balance.
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