[No players] Big epic lurking - PB74

[Mjmd]

As long as Mig didn't double move to slip units past Donovans vision on way to attack (IE this can happen especially with Galleons) I think everything is fine.

While sometimes war order is maintained between wars, its not a given. We very much don't want to encourage someone to camp a half of the turn so they can have it forever.

Donovan didn't include pictures but it sounds like he is mad that Mig got a double move for defensive purposes, which is very allowed. IF Mig knew Donovan was coming is is the polite thing? People can make up their own minds, but I don't think any action is needed.

[Amicalola]

Just to address the map complaints topic before I go back into my hole.

I think this map is just at the borderline for imbalance acceptability, but probably on the wrong side of it. There are a decent number of starts that are at the average level, but there are a few that swing considerably to the positive or negative, which led to a much stronger feeling of imbalance among many players (naturally, largely the ones who got weaker positions). This disparity can be seen, without addressing players, in some spoilered comparisons:

(you can probably look at just a couple of these for the idea, but I wanted to include lots to demonstrate the point)

In each of these duos, the former capital is completely uncompetitive with the latter. I don't think I even need to argue this point; it should be self-evident. Unusual circumstances and high-risk strategies can overcome this, and have in this game. So can a reverse disparity in surrounding land, although that is also very rare. As a player, it is pretty frustrating to realise that due to the map, the onus is on you to save yourself from inevitable defeat through high-risk gambles such as rushes, when other players can, by virtue of the RNG start assignment, simply out-compete you without taking on any risk. It is particularly frustrating when you expect the starts to be semi-balanced, and only realise the high-risk strategy was necessary too late for it to be workable.

The comparisons above, and my general argument, also ignore that the surrounding land is wildly stronger/weaker for various players. For me, that is more acceptable - when I ask for a 'randomly generated but looked over' map, I tend to expect balanced capitals (easy to create, relatively speaking) but imbalanced surrounding land (a nightmare to manage). This is different for everyone, and is possibly an unfair distinction on my end. But it was the view I went into this game with, and I suspect one that many other players shared.

I also want to address the potential counter that like all map complainers, I am just a Big Whingy Baby who always finds a reason to complain. Basically, I just don't think that's fair, and my previous writing speaks for itself. I have been very vocal when maps screw me (PB56, PB66, PB74), but I have also always acknowledged when maps bless me (PB59, PB64). I am vocal about both because I believe it is intrinsic and crucial to the progression of each game, which should be captured in my thread either way. But I would hope that my vocal acceptance of favourable starts as well as unfavourable ones lends some weight to my argument here - the capitals for this map were laughably imbalanced, and that should have been obvious from the start. The question is not whether it is true, but rather whether it is what the players asked for. I do not feel I asked for that, but maybe it's because I left my desires unspoken.

In any case, thank you for making the map, everyone who was involved. I have never done it, and I do not want to, so you can rest assured that I appreciate every person who makes maps for strangers on the internet. I just also wanted to justify my feedback, because it really frustrates me when legitimate map complaints are dismissed because other map complaints are illegitimate. I am looking forward to lurking the rest of the game with you all.

[Amicalola]

On a much less dramatic note, I would have thought that Mig/Ginger had locked up their continent many moons ago, but they don't seem so sure. I can't see DZ seriously challenging them, but maybe he can ruin their game substantially if they push him.

And it is really exciting to see if Pindicator can hold that tenuous island colony. Like many players, I'd have thought it was ludicrous, but so far Ginger/Mig seem content to let him keep it. Shows what I know.

[Mjmd]

Its an interesting question how bad opening borders to a former enemy is. Did Tarkeel / Civac know Plemo was going to do a sneak attack vs Commodore? Almost certainly not. They probably just wanted to deescalate the border. So is Commodore justified in being outraged here, probably not, but in the moment and all that. I do wonder if T/C noticed it. If they noticed it and didn't try to warn Commodore that is a little betrayal. If they didn't, nothing.

[Qgqqqqq]

He's definitely justified. If not for his attack on Plemo, it's likely Tarkac would be dead. Trouble is, he's reading from his perspective, and they've always seen the relationship very differently.

[Amicalola]

I'd be annoyed in the context of his former assistance. But then I think that assistance was a really obviously bad idea, so maybe this is a logical punish.

[El Grillo]

Too bad there's no AI diplo malus indicator option for "You betrayed us by opening borders to a mutual enemy!"

[Mjmd]

I meant to note that I love how this picture just shows the devastation on the isle of battle. So many tiles not improved.

[Mjmd]

As long as Mig didn't double move to slip units past Donovans vision on way to attack (IE this can happen especially with Galleons) I think everything is fine.

While sometimes war order is maintained between wars, its not a given. We very much don't want to encourage someone to camp a half of the turn so they can have it forever.

Same applies to Pins recent post below. Unsure if we should say something to Pin, but I don't see any lurker action needed here. 

Could we have a lurker kindly nudge Miguelito about playing his turns within the turn order?  I don't know if or when we'll attack him, but when he plays both before and after us in a highly chaotic situation it's impossible to do so fairly.

[Krill]

Stick with the pre existing 5 way turn split, no double moving is my view.