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[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

(September 26th, 2013, 14:11)WilliamLP Wrote:
(September 26th, 2013, 14:07)MindyMcCready Wrote: That's not that great of a city though.

Yeah it sucks... but the problem is it's really hard to deal with a stack of solid axes without horses, and retep knows it! It's also really hard to have any map info.

Quote:I'd really want to replant Carmen first. Then there's that PFH 3W of LaTravista and that amazing seafoodcity to our north.

Seems like we have some time for the horse city especially with both Ichabod and Cheetah showing 12+K power increasese in rapid succession. A storm is coming. smile

Just to avoid getting to fixated it's "Traviata", though small font makes it hard to read in the screenshots.

Traviata - got it! So are you wanting that city before Carmen? I'd really prefer Carmen,...the horses will come if later and it'll really help with the isolatation of WT.

As long as we're fighting a defensive war against a Retep that we can outproduce I think that we can delay the horse. As soon as he sees that we have horse he'll just stick a spear or two on top of it and we won't be attacking that unless we have a sustantial force that can break through and then do enough damage to the axes. Personally, with home-turf + roads/combat workers, I'd prefer more hammers in strength 5 axes.

I'd also rather have the mobility of a connected front rather than the mobility of a chariot that's near useless against the Phalanx unit. So I don't think that we'll want a whole bunch of these. We're going to need axes, spears and archers by WT; not chariots. As for Retep, we should be able to manage without horse up until we get cats anyway.

So I wouldn't plant a second rate city for horse when a first rate city like Carmen can get it with a bit of a delay. If you need horse bad enough you could always plant on top of it. :LOL:
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(September 26th, 2013, 15:17)MindyMcCready Wrote: So I wouldn't plant a second rate city for horse when a first rate city like Carmen can get it with a bit of a delay. If you need horse bad enough you could always plant on top of it. :LOL:

I hear your points, and will probably agree with you in the end, just because Carmen's site is such a boost to research, which as we can see is slooooow. We need military comfort to build there again, but with Turndot on axes for a few turns it won't take that long I hope.

The one point I can make is that at least our horse city would be a lot better than Retep's horse city! lol
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Another day of this complete mess of a game. lol




So this stack came from 1SW of Carmen, and has gone NW, N, E-NE, and now NW. He's looking to sit on the gold now? Tactics seem a little delicate. Ideally I'd have thought to have two workers where they could road 1E of Barbiere but they can't be everywhere.

Retep's worker moved back to the grass hill, guarded by 2 axes this time.

Math and construction are going to get delayed some more...

Ichabod is showing 2 Phalanxes to the east.

I won't move for at least 6 hours so any input is good.
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You've got 2 tags saying '1 Axe 1 Spear'. La Travista is empty from what I can see so I'm going to assume that that's a double count.

You're right about this being delicate because we're going to need at least 3 axes in Barbiere and Turnadot, but more in Barbiere as we could see chariots come out of the fog. We could also see chariots come to LaTraviata.

1. We urgently need a road on the corn. That is our fork defense location. However we have to be careful to only put Turandot defenders there since they won't be able to get into Barbiere if Retep moves NE of Barbiere.

2. Abandon the hill WW of Barbiere. We need that spear fortified up in Barbiere. It'll make a difference if we're facing off against 3 chariots and I don't think we want to put any hammers into spears right now. We also can't spare the axe on the hill and even if we did Retep could road and then hit with 2 axes for a 1:1 ratio.

3. We can't stop him from grabbing the gold. Kiss that goodbye.


I'm writing more comments but I just want to make sure that you get these before you make your moves.
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Quote:You've got 2 tags saying '1 Axe 1 Spear'. La Travista is empty from what I can see so I'm going to assume that that's a double count.

Correct, sorry.

Quote:1. We urgently need a road on the corn.

Agree. I was thinking of finishing the sheep this turn, and roading it next turn, but road corn -> sheep -> silver doesn't waste movement turns.

Quote:That is our fork defense location. However we have to be careful to only put Turandot defenders there since they won't be able to get into Barbiere if Retep moves NE of Barbiere.

We do have the equivalent fork location 1E of it, but retep can hit it from the gold, of course. Maybe there are situation where we'd want him to do that?

If it does move NE of Barbiere eventually, at least we have +100% from walls and a river in there for defense.

Quote:2. Abandon the hill WW of Barbiere. We need that spear fortified up in Barbiere. It'll make a difference if we're facing off against 3 chariots and I don't think we want to put any hammers into spears right now. We also can't spare the axe on the hill and even if we did Retep could road and then hit with 2 axes for a 1:1 ratio.

Sure. And the other spear really has to head back to Traviata, to defend against the barb warrior if nothing else.

I think we need to leave an axe in WT?

Quote:I'm writing more comments but I just want to make sure that you get these before you make your moves.

You have time; I won't play for a few hours.
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I'm a little concerned about what's going to join this stack once it can fork our capital and Barbiere.

1. Fortify the spear in Barbiere. A single unfortified spear in Barbiere has 64% chance of surviving a third chariot. So we should be ok there. A more respectable 71% chance if we fortify up.

2. Since 1 spear can protect Barbiere, let's fortify up the spear in LaTraviata. That city's a little more dicey without the culture - a 52% chance of surviving a 3rd chariot going up to 64% chance with full fortify.

3. We have 2 defensive fork tiles that we're going to need to use. First is the corn, but that will be a liability if Retep moves NE of Barbiere. Whatever force we have there will only have the choice of running to Turandot or making a direct attack. One thing that I'm not sure about is WHEN does a unit get to attack and then (surviving) get to finish it's 1/2 turn. A number of times, I've attacked thinking that I'll be able to move away and it seems like sometimes I get to, sometimes I don't.

The second fork defense location is 1W of the corn. This tile can protect Barbiere, LaTraviata, but not Turnadot. It's also good for hiding our units.

My guess is that Retep will move to the forking tile on T77. I don't think that we'll have any choice but to have the majority of our axes on the corn on T77 End.

T78, Retep moves 1NE of Barbiere and then we see the surprise chariots show up. One key question is whether he can see into Turandot from SSE of Turandot. I think that he can. The archer would be pretty effective as a fork defender 1W of the corn if we're safe from chariots. A fortified spear + 1 archer should survive any surprise that Retep might have for us.

4. We'll need our combat engineers in Barbiere. I can't see where they are right now but a road 1E of Barbiere would allow us to move to the gold tile and blunt his offensive. He could still proceed with it but he's much less threatening if we get to the gold first.


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(September 27th, 2013, 13:49)MindyMcCready Wrote: 2. Since 1 spear can protect Barbiere, let's fortify up the spear in LaTraviata. That city's a little more dicey without the culture - a 52% chance of surviving a 3rd chariot going up to 64% chance with full fortify.

Sure. It seems (from power numbers) that he's been building nearly all axes. He may have 2 chariots but I'm pretty sure he can't have three yet.

Quote: One thing that I'm not sure about is WHEN does a unit get to attack and then (surviving) get to finish it's 1/2 turn. A number of times, I've attacked thinking that I'll be able to move away and it seems like sometimes I get to, sometimes I don't.

I didn't think a 1-mover could ever move again after an attack? Maybe I'm wrong?

My guess is that Retep will move to the forking tile on T77. I don't think that we'll have any choice but to have the majority of our axes on the corn on T77 End.

Quote:T78, Retep moves 1NE of Barbiere and then we see the surprise chariots show up. One key question is whether he can see into Turandot from SSE of Turandot. I think that he can.


Yes, he can for sure.

Quote:4. We'll need our combat engineers in Barbiere. I can't see where they are right now but a road 1E of Barbiere would allow us to move to the gold tile and blunt his offensive. He could still proceed with it but he's much less threatening if we get to the gold first.

They're on the plains hill after finishing the mine. We can't get to gold first or it would be the obvious play.

Basically, to put this in terms of turns, I'm thinking:

- 1 Axe -> WT
- 2 Axes + 1 Archer by WT go 1SE
- Spear -> Barbiere
- Spear -> Traviata
- All others -> hang out of Barbiere for now
- 1 worker finishes the second cottage (we can't work gold this turn)
- 1 worker puts 1 turn on the corn road
- 1 worker puts 1 turn on a hill mine (finishes the corn road next turn while the other 2 finish the sheep)
- Barbiere switches to an archer for now - we need a defender more than a 4th worker in the area right now.
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(September 27th, 2013, 14:13)WilliamLP Wrote: I didn't think a 1-mover could ever move again after an attack? Maybe I'm wrong?

Yeah, I'm definitely wrong.

1 axe attacks 1 warrior on road: axe still has 1/2 move left after victory.

1 axe attacks 2 warriors on road: axe has no moves left.

So we have the counterintuitive fact that attacking and moving together takes less effort than attacking and staying still!
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Realized my pic is all wrong. We're the first half of the turn, Retep's the end of the turn. Please ignore.


(September 27th, 2013, 13:31)WilliamLP Wrote: That is our fork defense location. However we have to be careful to only put Turandot defenders there since they won't be able to get into Barbiere if Retep moves NE of Barbiere.

We do have the equivalent fork location 1E of it, but retep can hit it from the gold, of course. Maybe there are situation where we'd want him to do that?
Well we get to move first, so we could let him attack and then we attack the following turn before he can promote. But he could have auto-promote on so it's hard to see where we would want to do that.

(September 27th, 2013, 13:31)WilliamLP Wrote: If it does move NE of Barbiere eventually, at least we have +100% from walls and a river in there for defense.
Is it 50% for an amphibious attack? I was thinking it was 25%, but now I realise that you're right. Well that really reduces the liability of the corn fork. 3 axes on the corn fork that can make it to Turandot + 1 whip and we're safe there.

Out of the 6 axes (1 to complete) that we have in the area that leaves us with 3 more in Barbiere. Then the 1 archer as a fork defender. So that's 3 axes + 1 archer + 1 spear in Barbiere against 5 axes taking a 100% penalty + say, 3 surprise chariots.

So if he moves 1NE of Barbiere we simply move our 3 axes to the other 1W of Corn fork tile and we're pretty safe.

You'll have to be mindful that we won't get a chance to whip. If T76 Retep is sitting 1E of Barbiere we won't get a chance t whip.

(September 27th, 2013, 13:31)WilliamLP Wrote: I think we need to leave an axe in WT?

This is the question - whether to bring the forces from the east into play. Looks like WT can whip next turn? That's a relief. Do we have a turn into an axe? BUT, if any of those roads are pillaged we'd lose the axe hammers wouldn't we? So probably better to put the 1T into an archer. 3 archer and a spear should make that pretty safe. And it probably wouldn't be 4T before it could whip again.

So no, I'd guess we wouldn't want to leave an axe there. Let's get everything into play. That stack might be late for the party, or it might make it in time for clean up duties or maybe prevent a Retep-retreat. If we clean up nicely here we could yet again redeploy and chase Ichabod away from that desert hill. But that's a future problem.

If Retep does his first possible attack, it'll be EOT77 and we'd be 1SW of Barbiere at that point (or SSWW).


So here's where I tell you that I'll be camping in the wildernes for 3 days. :LOL: Good luck. smile
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(September 27th, 2013, 14:18)WilliamLP Wrote:
(September 27th, 2013, 14:13)WilliamLP Wrote: I didn't think a 1-mover could ever move again after an attack? Maybe I'm wrong?

Yeah, I'm definitely wrong.

1 axe attacks 1 warrior on road: axe still has 1/2 move left after victory.

1 axe attacks 2 warriors on road: axe has no moves left.

So we have the counterintuitive fact that attacking and moving together takes less effort than attacking and staying still!

Ok. that's a bummer meaning that we can't attack from the corn and have surviving units escape.
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