Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Twinkletoes89]

My suggestion isn't meant as a stone cold treaty, but as an opening idea for us to put to them to demonstrate true willingness to work together and for them to come back with what they would need and see if we can find a middle ground.

The best way for us to know what they need for long peace is to ask them. But to do it in a way which shows an actual level of thought has gone into it and that we are willing to offer them significant, concrete things.

They may well reject it or offer terms we cannot accept, but right now I think too many of us think war is inevitable and so don't want to make the necessary effort.

We may be a better target for them than CivFr, but we've already built our army unlike them, and what they fight will be strong and in a potentially very defensible chokepoint. That's worth avoiding, plus most of their army is near CivFr anyway.

[mostly_harmless]

But, TT, would it not make more sense to apply your approach to CivFr, given the geographical situation? If we team up CFC against CivFr, we are unlikely to grab any CivFr land, whereas CFC would. In a alliance with CivFr, both us and CivFr have a decent chance to split the CFC lands.
I think after the Spanish are gone, CFC will find itself bordering their biggest competitors. Why would we pamper them to further expand into CivFr?

mh

[Twinkletoes89]

In a normal game I would agree with you.

But we've barely got any diplo credit or major contact with CivFr and I don't see them as ever being committed enough to even negotiate long enough with us. They'll delay, keep supplying our enemies and we'll be likely guessing their intentions.

CFC we have a history of deals with, are easily contactable and we have a lot more contact hours logged with them. We would get a definitive answer or a strong read to their intentions much quicker and thus be better placed to plan.

Plus, CFC knows that they are sandwiched and need to make a deal or do something. Thus they are more likely to at least come to the table in the first place.

[Ubercannon]

My 2 cents:

It's not civ France that CFC (and us) need to watch out for, it's the potential of an alliance between them and Apolyton. Those two are teaching by far the fastest right now, and it won't be much longer before they pass us in tech. Their weakness is in production- whatever units they build, we and CFC could both overwhelm with numbers, but if they ally they could present a serious threat.

I would suggest proposing that CFC and us ally against both France and Apolyton. That might also allay their fears about our size, since while we're fighting France/apolyton we can't be rolling over weaker neighbors.

[TheHumanHydra]

Would there be any harm in simply putting out feelers to both of them (CFC and France)?

[fluffyflyingpig]

In a normal game I would agree with you.

But we've barely got any diplo credit or major contact with CivFr and I don't see them as ever being committed enough to even negotiate long enough with us. They'll delay, keep supplying our enemies and we'll be likely guessing their intentions.

CFC we have a history of deals with, are easily contactable and we have a lot more contact hours logged with them. We would get a definitive answer or a strong read to their intentions much quicker and thus be better placed to plan.

Plus, CFC knows that they are sandwiched and need to make a deal or do something. Thus they are more likely to at least come to the table in the first place.

CFC only will attack us if they can organize a dogpile. They know full well it makes no sense otherwise, our border is too short and we are at tech parity.

Do we think CFC has teams lined up for a dogpile? If not, we don't need to dicker with them.


Will teams perceive CFC as leaders rather than us after their win over the Spanish and our inconclusive war with the Germans? If we can't get out of the German war, bets are off and others may pile in, though...

[antisocialmunky]

Why not help them fight a war against CivFR at some point?

[NobleHelium]

I'm pretty sure that the game would be 20x more unfun if we had to cooperate with CFC on a turnly basis.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure that the last thing we want to do is let them have Cristo Redentor or the Kremlin.

[scooter]

Any objections to me asking the Spanish for their spare change before they are erased from this world?

[antisocialmunky]

Ask them to pillage their own stuff and send us that money too.