(June 12th, 2013, 15:57)Sullla Wrote: We will 100% be teching Military Tradition, and it will likely be sooner rather than later. This is not up for discussion, any more than when it was suggested we should skip Guilds/knights earlier.
Sure, skipping knights would have come with a large drawback, as we were entering an offensive war and knights are amazing in offensive warfare. But aren't we entering a stage of the game where we're likely to defend and tech, defend and tech? I don't see us waging a new offensive military campaign before communism, at least. Maybe Cavs and Curs are better at defensive war than I'm thinking, but if we had to choose, wouldn't we rather get steel for cannons?
(June 12th, 2013, 16:00)kalin Wrote: Regarding Alpha/PP vs. Gunpowder: everyone seems to want Alpha/PP however how long would each option take? PP seems to be worth 40c per turn according to some posts, but drafting muskets will also give us some hammer gain right? I'd be curious a bit how these compare. While PP first seems appealing, I feel I don't have the full picture for an informed decision.
The 40C comes from simply counting our towns, villages, and hamlets which will soon grow to villages (within 5t, IIRC). Last I counted, that came to 40, but it will of course increase over time - especially given the German core land we are about to take over.
Gunpowder will currently take 9t to research, assuming a 30% science rate (current breakeven), probably 7 or 8t in practice. Alpha > PP will take 13t by the same measure, probably 10 or 11t in practice - we will gain capture and pillage gold, lower our costs by getting fewer units in foreign land, and get economic buildings up.
Muskets cost 10H more than maces, but IMO they're not that great an upgrade over maces when drafted.
Right now, no team has Gunpowder yet, though several teams can research it.
A 4t difference (or less, depending on capture gold) is totally worth it. PP all the way.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(June 12th, 2013, 15:57)Sullla Wrote: We will 100% be teching Military Tradition, and it will likely be sooner rather than later. This is not up for discussion, any more than when it was suggested we should skip Guilds/knights earlier.
And you wonder why people don't contribute.
+1 @ NH
I have defended Sullla a lot and support some unilateral decision making, but that was a pretty ludicrous comment in a demo game involving the full site.
Completed: SG2-Wonders or Else!; SG3-Monarch Can't Hold Me; WW3-Surviving Wolf; PBEM3-Replacement for Timmy of Khmer; PBEM11-Screwed Up Huayna Capac of Zulu; PBEM19-GES, Roland & Friends (Mansa of Egypt); SG4-Immortality Scares Me
(June 12th, 2013, 16:47)Merovech Wrote: A 4t difference (or less, depending on capture gold) is totally worth it. PP all the way.
What do you mean?
In my mind the tradeoff is 7t faster PP vs 10t faster gunpowder.
7t of PP is apparently worth about 280 gold.
10t of gunpowder means an entire additional round of drafting is muskets instead of maces.
Muskets are way better than maces at defending against knights. (Or at least, a mix is way better - shock knights are a big pain but pinch knights are annoying too.) Depending on the political situation this could be the way to go.
My take is that if we went for gunpowder right now, it would come in precisely too late to make a difference in the german war, but earlier than necessary for t175. So I guess I'd favor PP.
These discussions should be taken to the long term planning thread.
Sullla was clearly using hyperbole here, don't get too upset. I mean, I can't imagine not researching military tradition this game since it's an almost essential tech, right? Mounted units move twice as fast as non-mounted units . I'm not sure where it should fit in to our tech order. But there's plenty of time to wait until we have to make a tech choice after alphabet -> printing press -> gunpowder.
(June 12th, 2013, 17:01)SevenSpirits Wrote: My take is that if we went for gunpowder right now, it would come in precisely too late to make a difference in the german war, but earlier than necessary for t175. So I guess I'd favor PP.
Yep, I agree with this logic. Alpha > PP > Gunpowder.
Also, PP probably cuts 1-2 turns off Gunpowder, and therefore every subsequent tech.
Additional benefit: spies! I think espionage is going to be our weak point in the coming war. I'd be shocked if there weren't spies running around our land already. The earlier we put spies in our big cities, the more chances we get to catch the incoming baddies.
Just watched the video from last turn - well done all for a great warfaring turn
One nitpick - we didn't spend any time looking at Catherine. We want to whip this theatre here now, right? I believe the plan is to get 2nd-ring culture there asap to get irrigation and hence good production.
(June 12th, 2013, 16:47)Merovech Wrote: A 4t difference (or less, depending on capture gold) is totally worth it. PP all the way.
What do you mean?
In my mind the tradeoff is 7t faster PP vs 10t faster gunpowder.
7t of PP is apparently worth about 280 gold.
10t of gunpowder means an entire additional round of drafting is muskets instead of maces.
Muskets are way better than maces at defending against knights. (Or at least, a mix is way better - shock knights are a big pain but pinch knights are annoying too.) Depending on the political situation this could be the way to go.
My take is that if we went for gunpowder right now, it would come in precisely too late to make a difference in the german war, but earlier than necessary for t175. So I guess I'd favor PP.
Oh, yeah, that's a better way of looking at it.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(June 12th, 2013, 16:47)Merovech Wrote: A 4t difference (or less, depending on capture gold) is totally worth it. PP all the way.
What do you mean?
In my mind the tradeoff is 7t faster PP vs 10t faster gunpowder.
7t of PP is apparently worth about 280 gold.
10t of gunpowder means an entire additional round of drafting is muskets instead of maces.
Muskets are way better than maces at defending against knights. (Or at least, a mix is way better - shock knights are a big pain but pinch knights are annoying too.) Depending on the political situation this could be the way to go.
My take is that if we went for gunpowder right now, it would come in precisely too late to make a difference in the german war, but earlier than necessary for t175. So I guess I'd favor PP.
What kind of units do you expect CFC to be attacking with on turn 175? Will it still be knights/maces/muskets, or do they have time to get something more advanced?
. I'm not sure where it should fit in to our tech order. But there's plenty of time to wait until we have to make a tech choice after alphabet -> printing press -> gunpowder.
