Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[Modo]

Nothing about modifying wonder overflow in the patch notes as I see it so we can't even be sure if this is actually intended or not.
On the amenities distribution, you could try varying the amenities traded with Rome to see if this changes the pattern or not. I do agree this should be controlled by the player just as much as the tiles picked when borders expand but maybe in the case of amenities we can influence them somehow.

[suboptimal]

With prior wonder production overflows did they register anywhere in the UI immediately or did you have to wait a turn for it to show up? It might be a case where the overflow doesn't show up until a turn elapses.

[Sullla]

Ouch, that's a shame about the patch changing how China's unique ability with builder charges interacts with production overflow. Singaboy has been using this tactic throughout the game up to this point, so he didn't just suddenly make a mistake. It definitely looks like an undocumented patch change to me as well. In other words, China can use the builder charges to get production into Ancient/Classical era wonders, but that production stops the instant the wonder completes with zero overflow. With regards to your point about Corvee policy, it does sound like it's not worth using up a policy slot if the extra +15% wonder production is only going to result in wasted / non-overflowing production. For that matter, Corvee is going to be obsoleted soon when China discovers Divine Right civic (it gets replaced with Gothic Architecture, the Medieval/Renaissance equivalent wonder policy). I defer to your thoughts on which policies make the most sense for China to be running.

Fortunately the Colosseum completing is really nice and we don't have to sweat out the possibility of losing that one anymore. For anyone picking China in one of these PBEM games, it's absolutely essential to claim the Pyramids and Colosseum, the two best Ancient/Classical era wonders. There are a bunch of other ones that are nice to have, but those two are absolute must-haves or else the China pick becomes a waste. As a result, China now has one of the best cultural outputs in the game and cities that are mostly Ecstatic in nature. One word about the amenities situation: the +3 amenities that the Colosseum grants to cities within 6 tiles can't be reassigned, but all of the amenities from luxury resources can and will be shifted around by the AI. I suspect that Shanghai will be up to Ecstatic on Singaboy's next turn as some of the excessive amenities elsewhere are shifted over there (the AI typically shifts the amenities around in between turns). Of course, I could also be wrong here, I'm interest to see how it shakes out.

The extra science/culture/gold/faith from cities being so happy is awesome. I was particularly surprised by the faith income, I didn't expect it to jump up by so much. With Jebel Barkal in hand, China should have a faith income of about 80 per turn. I agree that the next two wonders should be Jebel Barkal and Petra, both of them going at Quangzhou. Singaboy is going to be able to purchase a missionary in just 2 more turns and that's pretty disgusting given that he only recently faith-purchased a Wat. We'll probably get a few missionaries for the new Chinese and Roman cities (as well as potentially converting some Kongo cities for use with Crusade) and then we can look to save for Great Person patronage or Theocracy units after that.

I think that putting a forest chop into the settler at Beijing is a good call, since time is of the essence in the southwest. By the way, don't assume that Germany is stuck to land movement only - they'll probably turn up with Shipbuilding tech sometime relatively soon and we should be prepared for it. I also think that lining up some forest chops with Limes + city walls overflow feels like a good idea. China might even have Monarchy government ready by the time that those chops land for the amazing +150% production bonus. I think you do want Monarchy government since it's on the way to Theocracy (and might as well use it for a little while), but there's no need for Corvee policy.

On civics: I think you can dump excess culture into Military Training and then Mercenaries civics if you end up getting ahead of yourself on culture. Civil Service is the big target there but we don't need to rush to it quite yet. If China can take it to 40% completion and then chill while waiting for Hangzhou to reach size 10, that should be OK for a little bit. I wouldn't try to twist Hangzhou into knots here, it's fine to work on some of the other civics while waiting for the granary and city growth to size 10. A side note here: Divine Right requires a second temple for the boost, so Quangzhou probably wants to get started on a temple sometime in the near future (in between its wonder stuff). A temple in Quangzhou will also open up another Wat purchasing opportunity, and China certainly will have the faith for it.

I don't think we want to cash-rush a Great Merchant. The goal is to make money with this move, not spend money. More seriously, the mechanics for Great Person patronage require a big upfront investment even if there are only a few points remaining, I think it's 200 gold as a base cost and then 10 gold per missing GPP. Maybe if I came up just short and it looked like there was no other alternative, but I think that can be avoided with some careful planning. Ideally, Rome will jump from 28/60 GPP up to 60/60 GPP in a single turn and catch Germany completely off guard. The fact that I didn't make any attempt to steal the first Great Scientist might help here. (TheArchduke actually stopped running the 2 Great Scientist points/turn card once he saw that I wasn't trying to race him.) As far as upgrades go, I'm shooting for 4 warrior to legion and 6 archer to crossbow upgrades, and even with Professional Army to discount the cost that's pretty expensive. The warrior upgrades are 55 gold each and the crossbow upgrades are 90 gold each; that's 760 gold in all (and it would be 1520 gold without Professional Army, sheesh!) We're rich enough that we can afford that but we can't get too crazy over the next dozen turns.

While we're on this subject, one quick thought: what about purchasing the granary in Hangzhou? We're rich enough to afford it and that way the city could start growing immediately. Two birds with one stone and all that, right? As long as you don't need to purchase a lot of tiles in upcoming turns, I think this would work.

[Singaboy]

Ok, let's talk about city production planning:

Obviously the goal now is to get three settlers out as soon as possible. That will be aided by two forest chops in Beijing and Shangdu. Beyond that, China needs builders, traders, walls granaries etc. Well, one can't build all at the same time, hence my rough plan is:

Hangzhou: Settler (200 hammers) done on T80, two turn walls (managing to build just shy of completion), builder for more wonders etc. I might have to micromanage the city to make sure, it can't complete the walls in 2 turns. After that, I would like to build more archers to be upgraded to crossbows (total of 6 archers would be nice)

Beijing: Settler aided by forest chop done T78, walls (similar to Hangzhou short of completion). The city needs a granary too

Quanzhou: Two builders (T79/T86) for Petra and Jebel Barkal, then a temple. The builder will help to chop Shangdu's settler on T82 into completion. It will then move right back to build Petra starting T84, completing the wonder T88. The second builder will harvest copper on T88, the build Jebel Barkal T89 - T93. The three extra charges of the builders can be used to chop a harbor in Shanghai. In between, city will build walls.

Shangdu: Settler done by T82 (via forest chop) followed by walls (see above). The city really does need a granary for growth. It also has a trader waiting to be completed.

Shanghai: Production of trader will speed up with city growth next turn. It will then go for walls.

The question is 260gold for a granary is best used for which city? Hangzhou sounds like a good choice but it could build it in 3 turns itself. Beijing is a city that has potentially nice productive tiles to work (it even has two rice tiles in the third ring), hence I think I might lean to a purchase for it immediately.

Now the key issue is, China wants monarchy for powerful walls overflow chops. All five 'old' cities still have nice forests to be used for chops. Those chops will be worth around 200 hammers by the time we have a monarchy government and Limes in place. The new cities could use walls chops too , though forests are limited for 2/3 cities. I might have to simply use the walls overflow there to get some 150% bonus.
For the 'old' cities, chops will be used for districts such as CH, Holy Sites and Campuses. In Shanghai that chop will complete the harbor.

What about more wonders? Obviously, the sea wonders are still in contention though harbors are a real headache. Hangzhou might still want to build an Oracle, though the Great Library seems of little use for technology boosts as all are completed by that time. The question is whether 5 builder charges are worth 2 science and 4 faith. I would say, most likely not.

China could build the Terracotta army much later when a promotion for all land units would be really a good thing.

[Sullla]

One note for you Singaboy. One is that I might suggest building Jebel Barkal before Petra, as the former is more likely to have competition from other teams and I think has more usefulness for our civ. Your call on this however. Anyway, I had another late evening turn but this one was uneventful enough that I was able to play and report before going to bed.



Probably the most interesting thing that happened this turn was Japper upgrading his two warriors into Ngao Mbembas. I'm not quite sure why he did that; we have a Declaration for Friendship for another dozen turns and all that those units do is increase his maintenance costs. I'm also tracking his finances and it cost Kongo 220 gold for those two upgrades, dropping from 347 gold down to 127 gold. I see this as pretty good news overall: Japper's used up most of his treasury for those upgrades and his team doesn't have the income to generate gold quickly. (Kongo currently gets 11 gold/turn and Khmer gets 12 gold/turn.) Furthermore, by rushing to Iron Working he's obsoleted his warriors and ruled out the chance to build cheap warriors and then upgrade them. I'm tracking his power and Kongo had exactly 2 warriors and 2 archers coming into this turn. He'll have to slow-build his unique unit swords at 110 production apiece and Kongo just doesn't have very much production capacity right now. If we're really lucky, Khmer will burn its treasury as well for its own upgrades and they'll be caught flatfooted without much cash on hand for upgrades when we look to attack.

Singaboy, there's one other thing I forgot to mention: Rome's going to need to cash-rush a battering ram down here if we do this attack. I was planning on that all along since there wasn't going to be enough time to build one and move it down to the front lines. The timing on this is going to be tight; my forward city next to the two cows will get planted on Turn 83, and I want to upgrade units and start moving to attack almost immediately thereafter. I'm going to try to time it so that I have units encircling Mpinda from the sea, which will require that they embark ahead of time to get into position. As a result, with the potential need for a battering ram and the need to upgrade around Turn 84-85, we probably shouldn't go cash-buying any granaries right now. I'm sorry about that - I've been stealing your luxuries and taking your gold, not the best ally. But I think that getting the jump on Japper is probably the most important move we can make right now, and I want to gear our resources towards that.

Besides, if we manage to land the Great Merchant, I'll have plenty of excess cash to send China's way after that.



Territory overview of Rome with the religious lens turned on. Roma is just about to convert and I'm hoping that the jungle harvest next turn won't stop the conversion from happening. Ostia is almost done its Bath district. Venezia takes the settler to 1 turn away from completion this turn, then jungle chops it to completion next turn, then forest chops the Campus to completion the following turn. Milano still gamely working on its archer to get me up to 6 future crossbows for this attack.

Milano is definitely producing another builder next, and I'll likely try to get one out of Firenze as well to go help the new cities. Perhaps Ostia as well with a third builder after it completes its halfway done trader. Venezia is going to build its Bath district and then probably some ships. As for Roma, let's look at the Great Person math:



In the Great Merchant category, I currently get 3 points/turn and TheArchduke gets 3.5 points/turn because he's in Classical Republic with the +15% bonus. Right now, a district project costs 115 production and produces 28 Great Merchant points. If you do the simple multiplication, in six turns I will be at 14 + (3 * 6) = 14 + 18 = 32 Great Merchant points. Take those 32 Great Merchant points and add the 28 points from the Commercial district project and that gets exactly 60/60 required for Crassus. I looked at Roma and I can get the Commercial district project done in 5 turns (with the jungle chop), so I'll finish the archer this turn and then run the project for the next 5 turns after that. I do not think TheArchduke is currently running a Commercial district project since his income has been flat in recent turns. He also has more important priorities: Germany just entered the Medieval era 2 turns ago, and that has to mean that TheArchduke has Apprenticeship tech and is hard at work on Hansas right now. Expect his score to start exploding over the next few turns as they complete and are worth 6 points apiece.

So this seems like an opportune moment from a metagaming perspective to go for this play. It's still a risk, but ideally Rome will jump from 29/60 points to 60/60 points in a single turn, and I hope that will catch TheArchduke off guard. I think it's worth the attempt. If nothing else, it's fun to try it and we do play these games to have fun after all.

The biggest score change was Singaboy finishing the Colosseum and a Commercial district, he had a huge score increase. It looks like Russia also finished a Lavra district, although I won't be able to confirm that until next turn. Russia's culture has been surprisingly low given Lavras and Choral Music belief (only 17.6 culture/turn right now). I expected him to do more there. Perhaps they'll ramp it up in time, although I hope not. Think that's all for right now - let me know if you have any suggestions for Rome.

[Modo]

I'm sorry about that - I've been stealing your luxuries and taking your gold, not the best ally...If nothing else, it's fun to try it and we do play these games to have fun after all.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

[Singaboy]

Turn 76:

I added the numbers and I think we would still have sufficient gold to upgrade all Roman units (760 gold) and purchase a battering ram as well as a granary (520 gold). Well, to be one the safe side, I do not buy that granary as I am promised to get all my gold back to fight off the Germans  

It's a rather quiet turn especially after that action filled turn last round. We get mathematics and start on shipbuilding as I don't want stirrups yet and have to wait for construction on the way to machinery anyway. having the ability to embark units can't be bad and the Colossus relies on shipbuilding too.

Shanghai has grown to pop 4 and speeding up that trader. I might want to send that trader from out southernmost city north to get some roads for easier access. The city is still only happy with other cities at +4 amenities. That's Civ 6 for you.

In the south, Germany pokes around with an archer. As long as it doesn't interfere with my planned cities, I am not too concerned. We shall see what is happening.



With Shanghai at pop 4, it is time to micromanage to get Quanzhou to grow quickly to pop 6. Time to swap that sugar back to Quanzhou and the result is growth in two turns instead of 5. As the iron will be mined next turn, Quanzhou could work that tile to increases production to 14.3. Given that the next builder will cost a hefty 94 hammers, that is really needed. The current builder will have some decent overflow of +10 hammers, which will help to get the next builder out in 6 turns.
I am actually of the opinion that Petra is in greater danger of being built than Jebel Barkal. Why would anyone want to build that wonder? The only civ that would want such a wonder is Russia and even for them, this might not be that attractive. Remember that they built another wonder recently.

I use the apostles last free charge to convert Lisbon to increase China's income to 47.2. I am a little puzzled why Lisbon is following Marco Polo with half the population converted when Firenze does not follow with half of its population converted. What is the mechanic at play here? I do hope that both Firenze and Roma convert soon too as the religious pressure should be mounting with yet another city following Marco Polo.

The apostle will need three turns from here to reach 'friendly' territory and get us the last belief. Next turn, it is also time for another missionary to convert the new Roman cities.

[rho21]

The city is still only happy with other cities at +4 amenities. That's Civ 6 for you.

How many luxuries do you have, out of interest? With all the other cities boosted by the Colosseum, Shanghai should be getting one amenity per unique luxury you own (with the other amenities from those luxuries spread among the other cities).

[Singaboy]

3 luxuries and the rest of amenities coming from Colosseum. Not sure why Quanzhou gets 4 amenities and Shanghai only 2.

[Modo]

It can't be something similar to Representation in Civ4 where only x number of highest pop cities would get the extra amenities because Beijing is also at 4 pop. Or maybe there's a tie between them currently in which case we'll find out when Shanghai grows again.

Without knowing how it's actually coded even distance from capital can be a factor, at least the good news is that we're facing something new and hopefully we'll gain some more insight into how this works.