July 8th, 2013, 18:39
(This post was last modified: July 8th, 2013, 18:40 by Yell0w.)
Posts: 1,202
Threads: 22
Joined: Oct 2011
(July 8th, 2013, 18:23)Sullla Wrote: How could we take cities defended by jannisaries or rifles using our big army of maces and knights? Not at all, to answer your rethoric question
(July 8th, 2013, 18:19)Yell0w Wrote: If they research gunpowder and adopt nationhood we don't attack or just stop the attack.
(July 8th, 2013, 18:23)Sullla Wrote: Even if we did capture a couple cities, would they even be worthwhile? We've got a dozen new captured cities already! Yeah we got that, and we are licking our fingers for the cities we can rightfully "steal" from WPC right? Somehow this is inconsistent.
(July 8th, 2013, 18:23)Sullla Wrote: [...] but I see these mistakes all the time in these PBEM/Pitboss games. Another war immediately after the German would be a classic case of meaningless overaggression. That is probably true. I don't have the experience you do.
"Gentlemen. You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
- Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Posts: 5,636
Threads: 30
Joined: Apr 2009
(July 8th, 2013, 18:39)Yell0w Wrote: Yeah we got that, and we are licking our fingers for the cities we can rightfully "steal" from WPC right? Somehow this is inconsistent.
Nope - the German cities are cheap to gain. Fighting Poly would be a bloody mess - we're trading ~2-3 units per city on average so far. No way we get Poly cities for anything less than 10-15 per city.
Posts: 4,443
Threads: 45
Joined: Nov 2009
Can we swing this with CivPlayers as an NAP to attack Apolyton someday (50 turns) since CP is the weak Civ surrounded by 3 of the leaders?
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Posts: 3,735
Threads: 26
Joined: Sep 2010
Well, my point wasn't about attacking, but putting a course of action together to call 'Poly's bluff. At the moment any antagonistic action by them is unsupported, due to allies being either weak or tied up, so therefore 'Poly would have to back up the bluff or back down, and I honestly don't think a team running a farmer's gambit all game will wan't to re-tool their empire to fight the 300lb gorilla, even if we're not as scary as we look.
But I think a bit of leaning will actually get good results either way, a) 'Poly will commit to no future steals or b) they'll hurt our economy protecting against a possible attack.
Of course it'd take a lot more subtlety than I can manage to pull it off.
Travelling on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.
Posts: 17,496
Threads: 78
Joined: Nov 2005
I'm having a hard time seeing them stealing techs as being an antagonistic action. They're spending points they earned to get a technology. It's like spending beakers to get a tech, except at a far greater return because they maximized it quite well.
If they start making our cities angry or sabotaging production or changing our civics / religion then we definitely have a right to be angry. And unless they go full-fledged EP they aren't going to have nearly the same return rate in stealing future technologies; the costs will get to be more than a spy can give.
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
Posts: 15,339
Threads: 112
Joined: Apr 2007
Okay, I chatted with Yossarian. The log has a lot of idle chit-chat unrelated to this game in it, so I'm not going to paste the whole things, just the relevant stuff. One note: he did let us know that the marble will be back to T165-T175 as planned last time. I said okay fine and moved on. I'm only mentioning it because I'm supposed to pass this info on, but I swear if you guys even think about hijacking this thread into another marble argument.... 
Anyway, couple stray things that came up before we talk about the relevant portion:
1) He noted that their turn player had a mixup and pillaged a cottage a turn or two ago. I actually didn't notice, and none of us did... He apologized and said it wouldn't happen again. I just said thanks, that we had decided not to make a fuss about it, but we'd appreciate it stopping. It's mainly noteworthy to me that they care about not pissing us off. It says a lot about how they feel their situation with CivFr is.
2) He reiterated that CivFr has been difficult. This was the line that made me smile:
Chat with CFC Wrote:YossarianLives
lol, well you're lucky you're not neighbors with them. The slow response times really make things harder when we're trying to figure out a good border arrangement
We've been trying to get peace with them. I don't know if they're just going with "war to the death" or what at this point. Maybe they're just trying to get a reputation so nobody attacks them in the next ISDG
I read this as CFC is genuinely concerned they may never get peace with CivFr. Great news for us. Even if they make peace, it'll likely be at terms that disadvantage CFC. Really happy to let them continue to poison their relationship with each other.
3) The main thing, and I'll paste the log for this:
Chat with CFC Wrote:YossarianLives
Getting back on topic a little bit... Are you having trouble extending NAPs with any other teams?
Have you guys thought at all about what a NAP with us might look like?
scooter
yeah I mean apolyton isn't super interested, but a quick glance at their power graph suggests there's 0 to be afraid of hah
with you guys - not so sure. the general consensus on our team is we aren't interested in war with you because that would be dumb for both of us, but we aren't super interested in paying for a NAP either
we figure it's not that hard to just park the bulk of our army at your border and defend it. cheaper too 
I know a lot of your concern is that we might use a NAP to just run over other neighbors. would you guys be interested in a straight up NAP extension (no payment on it), but with a clause that if one of us starts a war, the other has an "out" on the NAP?
like, let's say we extend T175->T200. but then on T185 we declare on a neighbor and you're afraid we'll run over them. you'd have a window where you would have the choice to cancel and intervene if you felt it necessary
YossarianLives
Well that's an interesting idea. I'll have to take it back to the team. Part of the concern is that you'll keep rolling over other teams. The other part is that if you peacefully develop your current lands then nobody can surpass you anyways, especially with your new German lands
scooter
yeah I understand that. but I also figure you guys just added a bunch of nice land too and you'll want to consolidate
I figure if we both had 25T to do that, it might be a lot easier to ascertain what a fair deal is after that
and with the amount/quality of land you grabbed, you're a lot closer to us than maybe previously.
YossarianLives
Is this an idea you just had, or have you already discussed it with your team and they would accept it for sure?
scooter
it's an idea we talked about as a team and are generally interested in, but it's not yet a binding offer if that makes sense
but knowing your'e at least interested in discussing it - I'll take it back to them and we'll talk
we have a couple days until we can login anyway 
YossarianLives
haha, yep
What turn are we at now, 159?
scooter
that sounds right
YossarianLives
Or still 158?
scooter
just finished 158
YossarianLives
Yeah, lots of time to figure out any details of a potential NAP, also
scooter
yeah and the turn pace is slow so 175 is realistically over a month away
YossarianLives
The funny thing is you're not even exagerrating
scooter
i know, it's crazy.
this last turn took what, 5 days?
YossarianLives
How much longer do the Germans realistically have in the game? It seems that they're putting up a better fight against WPC than they are against you
scooter
hard to predict for sure since they do still have a godo sized stack left
I don't think super long though. I'm pretty confident they'll be dead before our NAP with you expires
also, did you notice who the new tech leader is?
ottomans just stole 3 very expensive techs from us
YossarianLives
Ottomans, that's Poly, right?
Does that make them the tech leader?
I just finally started using our Alphabet info to catch up on who has which tech 
I thought CP had the big Espy lead
scooter
yep and yep
yeah it's apolyton
I'm wondering if it was a great spy bomb. haven't confirmed yet, but we can't login right now to confirm it
just going off event log and their massive scoreboard leap to 2nd place
YossarianLives
What, they're in second place now?!?!
Oh wow
scooter
yep, crazy right? http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2416 4:39 PM
YossarianLives
Wouldn't the event log tell us if someone birthed a Great Spy?
scooter
I really don't remember off the top of my head if they've ever gotten one or what. they literally just did this an hour or two ago as you see on civstats so we haven't quite pieced it together yet
anyway, I gotta run. thanks for chatting
YossarianLives
Alright, talk to you later
scooter
we'll discuss the NAP thing a little more internally and I'll catch up with you soon
Bolded part is the key part. I'm betting the answer is yes, but what do you guys think of officially offering to CFC through T200? To spell it out so there's no confusion:
1) NAP until T200
2) No payments at all. Stone/Spices end on T175. I think we could be willing to give them a very minor gift or something (one resource maybe) since it does help us more, but we do NOT offer this up front. Only as a deal sweetener if absolutely necessary. And even then not anytime soon - wait them out for awhile.
3) If we declare war on somebody during that time, CFC would get a window (say, 2T) with which they could declare the NAP void. If CFC declares on someone during that time, we get the same option. Otherwise, no outs
4) The usual additional clauses which we'll want to tie up carefully.
WHat do you guys think? We have an opening here where they may want this for fear of CivFr. I like this because it's super unlikely we'll declare on anyone prior to T200 since we BADLY need to consolidate, and this gives us tons of flexibility. Thoughts?
Posts: 17,496
Threads: 78
Joined: Nov 2005
I like it, and writing in a window to opting out of the NAP is a good idea.
This whole "void on declaring war" clause seems to get enough teams interested; it'd be nice to swing that with all our neighbors
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
Posts: 7,766
Threads: 94
Joined: Oct 2009
(July 8th, 2013, 21:27)scooter Wrote: 1) NAP until T200
2) No payments at all. Stone/Spices end on T175. I think we could be willing to give them a very minor gift or something (one resource maybe) since it does help us more, but we do NOT offer this up front. Only as a deal sweetener if absolutely necessary. And even then not anytime soon - wait them out for awhile.
3) If we declare war on somebody during that time, CFC would get a window (say, 2T) with which they could declare the NAP void. If CFC declares on someone during that time, we get the same option. Otherwise, no outs
4) The usual additional clauses which we'll want to tie up carefully.
WHat do you guys think? We have an opening here where they may want this for fear of CivFr. I like this because it's super unlikely we'll declare on anyone prior to T200 since we BADLY need to consolidate, and this gives us tons of flexibility. Thoughts?
I completely agree with what you wrote here. Oh, and let's be sure to keep the ban on EP spending.
I will add: getting a NAP with CFC may actually be better than it appears at first glance. Granted, other teams (CP and Poly) won't necessarily be afraid, since CFC is reserving the right to defend them. But if CFC was the team that convinced them to this NAP embargo thing in the first place, those teams might feel a bit sold out, and be more inclined to deal with us in the future.
Posts: 13,214
Threads: 25
Joined: Oct 2010
Yes, I told scooter that I like the plan.
Posts: 261
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2012
Given that we're getting a much bigger chunk of the Germans than we were originally looking at, a NAP with CFC sounds great. I can't imagine us wanting to attack anybody sooner than turn 200 anyways.
If we can get a NAP with them locked up, then I might be tempted to suggest banking next instead of gunpowder.
|
