[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Mjmd]

I'm actually not sure if reduced price granaries that provide fresh water or India fast worker are better. The fresh water thing is either irrelevant or worth an extra food until at least bureaucracy.

AND SHAME PICKING INDIA WITH VICTORIA ALREADY BEING TAKEN!!!!!!

I kid. The nice thing about Hannibal is we won't be tempted to build too many wonders. The nice thing about Capac is we will be tempted to build wonders! Might be interesting to see how many mysticism civs are taken by time it comes back around. One nice thing about an early Stonehenge is that it can produce a prophet for a shrine.

That being said, Hannibal is just an overall awesome leader. It never feels wrong to just take pure goodness.

Edit: Pacal wouldn't be the worst backup either. 

EDIT EDIT: Protective Celts are really annoying to attack. I wonder if they wanted Charlemagne. Spam all over and found hill cities on all sorts of borders.

[Amicalola]

I'll have a night alone for the first time in weeks and weeks tonight, so in about 12 hours I'll try to make a lil' opponent player/combo tier list and thoughts post. I hope you guys do the same, one of the worst parts of playing is that I can't read the other player's ones! Preliminary version includes: EXP and PRO are way more valued by others than by us (or at least me), and I'm particularly scared of Pacal of Khmer, since it was up there as the pick I was thinking about.

Yeah I ended up going with Hannibal as a just "overall good" pick, since I want to focus on my overall MP play this game and he should give us a comfortable backdrop to war or peace on.

[Mjmd]

I was just going to do a spreadsheet and make you do the analysis, but if you request it. Shrug why not. (goes and gets a drink)

Initial thoughts are that expansive is more popular probably due to tech thread and other threads saying its still good. What confuses me is that NO ONE PICKED INCA...... Like Inca isn't half of expansive, but its darn close. I'm sooo confused. Why not take the partial trait and then pick a full one? I get the starting techs aren't the best, but with reduced cost in agriculture, I'm shocked no one picked. 
Normally Hannibal isn't a leader that wants a religion, but we are one of two starting with mysticism, so maybe after pottery. Something to discuss later along with Oracle.

Below is my normal spreadsheet I make for games. This is actually the most maybe's I've had for religion. BTW this is not important per se, its just something for trying to figure out plans and I have a soft spot for organized religion.



Briefer than what I would write. Also, just an obvious, most of these people are pretty skilled.

Jowy - takes Wang Kong and then doesn't pick Mali. Disappointed I am. BTW all these protective peeps are going to make attacking harder. I have Jowy pegged as person building Stonehenge way too early and will be slow expanding. Wouldn't mind starting near.
Com/Pin - I would be shocked if Saladin was their first pick for protective leaders. That being said their passive thinking is easily better than my active in civ sooo good luck. Miguelito you have work to do. That being sad they have nothing other than their skill to speed them up, so wouldn't be the worst neighbor. Just impossible to attack at tech parity unless a large difference in strength.
Superdeath - Got run over by Carthage and now wants to be them? Ironically you want to be near and hope he goes after someone else. Or be on the other side of whomever he goes after. I have no doubt he will try to make a numid cav attack work against whomever he thinks has spurned him most at that time.
Ruff - I thought he was a genius and was going to take Inca on the way back. Victoria of Inca sounds awesome! Prats are scary, but less so without being aggressive and being on a bigger map. Now its possible the prats are really a scare tactic to get more land without anyone contesting. I don't hate that thought process.
Gav - Heh look the person war chariot rushing us! (I kid I kid; hopefully.....). As long as we don't get rushed, not the worst neighbor long term. Curious if the plan is to chariot rush as with agri getting reduced cost, on eof the main reasons to take Egypt is gone in its good starting techs. Obviously a good player, but honestly after his flame out in PB48 didn't expect to see him back.
Amica - took generic good stuff. Easy pickings though (I'm not just joking here, I guarantee this is being put in most of the write ups, something to keep in mind as far as how much power we have ect)
AT - if he wasn't imperialistic I would want to neighbor. Very confused on France unless its for starting techs. If you wanted a good 2 mover Byzantium was still out there.
Gasper & peeps - good stuff with synergy! Seems solid and strong. They seem very engaged based on PBEM thread and have probably forgotten more about civ than I know. Full strength elephants are just silly, don't want to neighbor as i predict they will be strong in all phases.

[Mjmd]

Will try to spend part of tomorrow simming. Sometimes with India you go BW and chop out a second worker, but my instinct with this start is to just grab all the worker techs. If we can all give options Amica can then pick.

What do people think of scouting directions? Go to ocean and go around is my thought. First city is likely on one of our two rivers that can share capitals food.

[Amicalola]

Alright, I have a rare amount of time, so let's gets this done now while I can.

THE ENEMY
Jowy - WANG KON (FIN/PRO) of NATIVE AMERICA
From PB 52 Jowy seems like he's been able to build a really strong economy off of a pretty small land area, but he's really struggled in warfare. Meanwhile, Native America seems perfect to play to the strengths of Jowy in that game with a defensive UB (or one of buffing defensive units, at least), and though NA has no innate economy, Financial and Protective should take care of that problem real nice. Very dangerous if left alone, and hard to conquer if not. I like this pick as a not super obvious, but actually quite strong, selection. Maybe you could go offensive later with muskets or crossbows, but I'm less optimistic about that one. 9/10 Sneaky-good Pick.

Commodore/Pindicator - SALADIN (PRO/SPI) of CELTS
This is a weird one, I don't get it. Saladin seems... ok? Celts seem.. maybe good? Charriu sure seems to have defended thanks to being Celtic in 52 so well. On the other hand, Com/Pindi combo seem like arguably the best players in this game, so I wouldn't ever underestimate this team. 4/10 Player-carry.

Superdeath - MAO (EXP/PRO) of CARTHAGE
Well, this seems like an obvious "expand out a lot, especially on coasts, and build a trade economy" pick. I wonder if Superdeath has a coastal start? If so, I really like this pick, and if not, I still potentially like it dependin on the water level. Not an aggressive (early) pick, but this is Superdeath and I've picked up a certain... reputation, shall we say. Don't want to start near. 7/10 Superdeath.

Ruff Hi/Civac - VICTORIA (FIN/IMP) of ROME
I really like Victoria, and don't love Rome, for reasons I mentioned before. This team's main factor on my end is my annoyance at them having stolen the former from us. Ruff, based on PB 54, has a kinda hard-to-decipher way of reporting, and I have no way of knowing yet if he's a good player. Maybe? The pick seems threatening late with FIN and early with IMP and Praetorians, so I do like it, just not as much as us or some other ones. 6/10 All Rounder.

Gavagai - SURY (CRE/EXP) of EGYPT
This feels like a vanilla pick. Agriculture is notably worse as a starting tech now, and I also don't love Sury with EXP and CRE both being nerfed in CtH. They;re both still decent, but I think there are multiple better options if I'm honest. As far as the player, seems like he's very aggressive in game and with language, and with him playing Egypt and my past experience with THAT civ, I'd probably rate him as the worst neighbour. 7/10 El Grillo 2.0

Amicalola, Mjmd and Miguelito - HANNIBAL (CHA/FIN) of INDIA
Don't Shoot, that's not an enemy!
Our picks don't synergise, but I think we got two of the best independent picks in the game, so that's nice. As far as the game prospects, that mostly depends on how much input you guys give, but with FIN and CHM both being decent late, and CHM and Fast Workers early, I like our picks as one of the best in the game, along with Lewwyn and co. and Jowy's probably. We can definitely be relevant, especially if left alone by Lewwyn, Superdeath and Gavagai. I also expect us to be considered sitting ducks by everyone else, which could be good if we're ignored, or bad if we're dogpiled.  6/10? Snack.

AT - CHARLEMAGNE (IMP/PRO) of FRANCE
This is one of the bigger headscratchers for me. Like yeah, you get super-musket/knight fusion action going on, but you have to make it quite a ways into the game to get there, AND you also don't get much else. He can expand quickly and fund it with trade routes, maybe? I dunno. AT has done not very well in both games I've seen him play, but he's played in a lot and at least 53 seemed like bad luck, so I'm not sure about his skill level, but wouldn't be surprised if he's much better than I think. 5/10 Surprise winner.

Lewwyn, Gaspar, NobleHelium and Brick - PACAL (EXP/FIN) of KHMER
Well, this is who I have for the scariest team, as well as the scariest pick. And they were last in the snake order.
I love Pacal of Khmer, as barays are nice to have but expensive, and the discount is huge. Meanwhile, cheap granaries to smooth the growth curve, FIN for late game oomph, elephants for a midgame romp, and you get a monster combo. This is DEFINITELY the team I'm most scared of out of the gate, and probably who I want near me least after Gavagai (and maybe they should be before). Also, I think a lot of teams have a decent shot, but if I HAD to put money on one team winning the PB, it would probably be these guys. I like Lewwyn and Gaspar a lot from having read their input in other threads recently, they both seem good at civ to boot, and Noble seems like he's just really enjoys micro, so I expect their play to be good as well. 10/10 Scary.

[Amicalola]

Will try to spend part of tomorrow simming. Sometimes with India you go BW and chop out a second worker, but my instinct with this start is to just grab all the worker techs. If we can all give options Amica can then pick.

What do people think of scouting directions? Go to ocean and go around is my thought. First city is likely on one of our two rivers that can share capitals food.

That sounds great, I'll try to have a go but can't promise tomorrow. My instinct is also to go workers techs and grow from the start, since we have so many good tiles to work, but we probably need to sim it out in case that's wrong. 

I'm thinking head to ocean first as well, since that way maybe we can establish a backline? Or is it more important to find people and city sites earlier and go for map-layout later?

[Mjmd]

Be a little careful with spoilers of games people are in btw:]

with everyone criticizing in the tech thread for rushing rifles instead of cuirassiers or cannons.

Assuming you meant lurker thread. As its known I did the same thing and have done stupider things I can only imagine what they say about me lol.

I imagine scout to coast NW, go up and around (borders will pop) as well, and get back to coast on other side. You can then decide to do another arc or to go along coast. Up to you of course, but immediate vicinity would be nice for micro purposes.

[Miguelito]

Congrats on getting a very strong and solid pick here! I was feeling excited with the prospect of Huayna in a game, but it certainly would not have been easy and had a great risk to get derailed early. So now you have a strong base to focus on the basics: workers, chops, settlers, whips, defense, tech.

looking at the screenshot, do you think we're in the north, south , or middle? Hard to tell with no tundra/FP/jungle visible, but I have a slight tendency towards north because deer/elephant. In thatcase it makes sense to me to move the scout NE, circle counterclockwise so you uncover at least all possible 2nd/3rd city locations (though I agreee that it's very likely at least the second one will be on one of the food sharing spots). Then the scout can go looking for competition/known tech buddies.


Quick&dirty:

1. Jowy - Wang Kon / Native America -> aren't dogs considered bad? Turtle with bows/guns. Don't fear an offense from him too much.

2. Commodore/Pindicator - Saladin / Celts -> this is a meme. But they are top of the field players of course, so watch out. Both prone to gloom if things don't go their way.

3. Superdeath - MAO / Carthage -> I suppose we can just read pindi's 52 thread to see how this is played correctly? (Mjmd can't :P). My takeaway is that to defend against numids you need HAs yourself. I'm not quite convinced by the cothons' awesomeness. Sure they're good, but you have to research compass early which you probably wouldn't otherwise, and it's still a building you normally wouldn't build.

4. Ruff Hi / civac2 - Victoria of Rome -> Trademark Ruff nonsynergistic pick (this is minor, but IMP gives cheap stables, and Praets walk). Both components are good indipendently. I have doubts if Ruff will actually plan an attack with Praets unless he sees an evident opening (say, crippled SD in PB49)

5. Gavagai - Sury of Egypt -> Gavagai on a good day is as at least on the same skill level as Comm/pindi. It's absolutely not past him to do a WC rush. Let's try not to start next to him, else, settle for easily connected copper . I've been wanting to play CRE for some time because I find it interesting, and we have no idea yet if it has been nerfed too hard, as it hasn't been picked in 52 and 53 afaik.

6. Amicalola - Hannibal / India -> beautiful pick & players.

7. AutomatedTeller - Charlemagne / France -> no idea re: the pick. He will not join another game and focus here. AT won PB47, so it's not like you can't expect anything from him.

8. Gaspar/Lewwyn/AndFriends - Pacal of Khmer -> probably the third team within the top tier (no one knows yet how rusty they are). The pick has very strong components, although I'd prefer to pair Khmer with IMP instead of EXP (but both are playing IMP in PBEM78, also Vicky was taken already). If the map is as lush as the cap, I think the +1f from Baray is less significant as cities will be well fed anyways. edit: and if they also have Jowy as a neighbour we at least don't have to fear a rush from them, see tech thread.

[Amicalola]

Be a little careful with spoilers of games people are in btw:]

with everyone criticizing in the tech thread for rushing rifles instead of cuirassiers or cannons.

Assuming you meant lurker thread. As its known I did the same thing and have done stupider things I can only imagine what they say about me lol.

I imagine scout to coast NW, go up and around (borders will pop) as well, and get back to coast on other side. You can then decide to do another arc or to go along coast. Up to you of course, but immediate vicinity would be nice for micro purposes.

Crap you're right, I'm sorry. Fixed now. 

Yeah, I agree for scout for now. We'll have to see what it turns up to decide more, I guess.

[Amicalola]

Congrats on getting a very strong and solid pick here! I was feeling excited with the prospect of Huayna in a game, but it certainly would not have been easy and had a great risk to get derailed early. So now you have a strong base to focus on the basics: workers, chops, settlers, whips, defense, tech.

looking at the screenshot, do you think we're in the north, south , or middle? Hard to tell with no tundra/FP/jungle visible, but I have a slight tendency towards north because deer/elephant. In thatcase it makes sense to me to move the scout NE, circle counterclockwise so you uncover at least all possible 2nd/3rd city locations (though I agreee that it's very likely at least the second one will be on one of the food sharing spots). Then the scout can go looking for competition/known tech buddies.


Quick&dirty:

1. Jowy - Wang Kon / Native America  -> aren't dogs considered bad? Turtle with bows/guns. Don't fear an offense from him too much.

2. Commodore/Pindicator - Saladin / Celts -> this is a meme. But they are top of the field players of course, so watch out. Both prone to gloom if things don't go their way.

3. Superdeath - MAO / Carthage -> I suppose we can just read pindi's 52 thread to see how this is played correctly? (Mjmd can't :P). My takeaway is that to defend against numids you need HAs yourself. I'm not quite convinced by the cothons' awesomeness. Sure they're good, but you have to research compass early which you probably wouldn't otherwise, and it's still a building you normally wouldn't build.

4. Ruff Hi / civac2 - Victoria of Rome -> Trademark Ruff nonsynergistic pick (this is minor, but IMP gives cheap stables, and Praets walk). Both components are good indipendently. I have doubts if Ruff will actually plan an attack with Praets unless he sees an evident opening (say, crippled SD in PB49)

5. Gavagai - Sury of Egypt -> Gavagai on a good day is as at least on the same skill level as Comm/pindi. It's absolutely not past him to do a WC rush. Let's try not to start next to him, else, settle for easily connected copper . I've been wanting to play CRE for some time because I find it interesting, and we have no idea yet if it has been nerfed too hard, as it hasn't been picked in 52 and 53 afaik.

6. Amicalola - Hannibal / India -> beautiful pick & players.

7. AutomatedTeller - Charlemagne / France -> no idea re: the pick. He will not join another game and focus here. AT won PB47, so it's not like you can't expect anything from him.

8. Gaspar/Lewwyn/AndFriends - Pacal of Khmer -> probably the third team within the top tier (no one knows yet how rusty they are). The pick has very strong components, although I'd prefer to pair Khmer with IMP instead of EXP (but both are playing IMP in PBEM78, also Vicky was taken already). If the map is as lush as the cap, I think the +1f from Baray is less significant as cities will be well fed anyways. edit: and if they also have Jowy as a neighbour we at least don't have to fear a rush from them, see tech thread.

Thanks for the thoughts, both of you. Sounds like we all mostly agree on the picks, which is nice. Dogs are bad, I think, yeah, but I guess with NA you kinda get every archery unit as a UU? I'm not sure, maybe I overrated it? It'll be fun to see CRE in play for sure. Agree on Khmer with IMP, but I think EXP is easily the next best combo with them, and both are good.

Second city will PROBABLY share the deer/sheep/both right, since that just makes the early game SO much more efficient. And yeah, I like Hannibal for having an overall really solid game as well,without needing to focus on any one thing too much. Lastly, as far as location, these are both arguably weak tells and I'[m not confident, but I lean towards north for a) the deer (are elephants found north?) and b) the pine forest is in our north, which typically you'd see more going further north. Maybe we're north-ish, but not extreme? Maybe GKC didn't use tree types with elevation? All possible.