[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[MindyMcCready]

My own jury is still out on the value of the market even at 75 hammers, but if you play this game like you're "supposed to", expanding until the verge of bankruptcy and then digging your way out, I can see the worth of having them cheap when you're running less than 50% science.

I'm surprised that you still question the value of a market in this game: +2 happy (cheapest source other than +2C quechas); +25% gold for an economy that should be crashed; can work merchants,....for only 75H.

So what buildings do you think are better than that for us in this game?

Also, are you implying that you don't intend to play as you're 'supposed to"? Power will be the most important thing in securing our land and dealing with Ichabod. Tech is but a tool for power.

[WilliamLP]

So what buildings do you think are better than that for us in this game?

Settlers, workers, axes, catapults. Barracks. Also courthouses are probably a better deal for econ in commerce per hammer everywhere but the capital, as are libraries still. (If maintaining a long term ratio above 50%. But I don't see us being able to do a lot of rapid-expansion here). The happiness is valuable if it allows us to do something we ordinarily wouldn't, but we do have a better per-hammer deal in temples. By the time we have calendar and maybe wines, we're going to have a lot of excess happiness in this game I think. Also with trading (surely there's got to be one person in this game...) I think we can get all we need without markets if we want to.

[MindyMcCready]

Peeking at Retep's move before the turn roll:

He (temporarily?) stepped back. The axe and 2 chariots forked north, hoping we made a terrible oversight, but we didn't: Traviata will be defended with a C1 axe and 2 spears. The other units will keep healing, which is quite welcome.

I hate to bring this up again but I see a strong case for getting the east horse / furs city right now, rather than New Carmen. The reason is that the site needs virtually zero attention to defense, and Retep is showing every sign that he is going to be fishing for chess tactics on our borders for the rest of the game, to the exclusion of all else. And just a couple of chariots would force him to pull axes back and invest in spears. Also, the fur happiness would be quite valuable right now as well.

I'll be a little uncomfortable with that decision. Retep's a PITA, but Ichabod will have every ability to take that city off our hands if we remain unconnected. Also, it won't be long until LaTraviata is a fortress with culture + hills + strong production. We should have the military to hang onto until the borders pop and then Retep's ability to hurt us there really dwindles. And we might get there before Retep can really put a threatening army back together.

Carmen = difficult defense against Retep (but one that we can win) + difficult defense against Ichabod (but one that we can defend against if nothing else).

Horse City = safe against Retep + completely unable to protect WilliamTell. A pillaged road or two and that city is completely isolated.

Also, no Carmen means that Retep can walk up to that triple fork location on us again. Then there's the instant return from Carmen and the low worker requirement. Yes, its a bit of a slog, but I'd still much prefer Carmen.

About that axe + 2 chariots around LaTraviata:
C1 Shock Axe vs Chariot: 79.65%
C1 Shock Axe vs Axe (Hills): 68%
- so Retep's hill axe should defend against a shock axe then exposing his 2 chariots. Let's take out that little incursion stack if we can.

[WilliamLP]

I'll be a little uncomfortable with that decision. Retep's a PITA, but Ichabod will have every ability to take that city off our hands if we remain unconnected. Also, it won't be long until LaTraviata is a fortress with culture + hills + strong production. We should have the military to hang onto until the borders pop and then Retep's ability to hurt us there really dwindles. And we might get there before Retep can really put a threatening army back together.

Carmen = difficult defense against Retep (but one that we can win) + difficult defense against Ichabod (but one that we can defend against if nothing else).

Horse City = safe against Retep + completely unable to protect WilliamTell. A pillaged road or two and that city is completely isolated.

The thing though is that we have a settler in 2 turns, and planting the horse city is easy - we just do it. We even have workers almost there already (at WT) to improve it immediately. Planting in Carmen's site would mean we have to direct a lot of defense there right now, which isn't easily done, given that retep is building at least a unit a turn still.

Chariots will change the game completely on our border.

I don't think Ichabod can get to Carmen first, and I think it would be even stupider of him to try than it was for him to try his other plant. (The site isn't on a hill and it's even closer to our land and further from his.)

And it's not either-or. We can build settlers in 4 turns! It's just that with a few chariots first, defending the Carmen plant will be much simpler. Retep will go "holy crap" and retreat everything since he has absolutely no spears.

[MindyMcCready]

So what buildings do you think are better than that for us in this game?

Settlers, workers, axes, catapults. Barracks.

Well I like all those things, especially in this game.

Also courthouses are probably a better deal for econ in commerce per hammer everywhere but the capital,

Well that's debatable and dependent on the size of our empire and I guess, as you say, on our need for happy.

If we've crashed our economy as much as I would want to, then the 25% gold will really help.

as are libraries still.

If we have the chance of trading land for tech rate i think that we should take it. Get that land while we can so long as we can defend it. Consequently, 20% - 30% breakeven is much more in order than 50%. Based on that the library is a terrible, more expensive building, providing unnecessary culture that we don't need given our UB. One for the Academy maybe, but otherwise inferior to the market in every other way.

Land and power is the way to secure our borders and deal with Ichabod and Retep. Once we get construction + HBR we'll have access to the best units that remain relevant for a very long time. Hold our borders and develop / recover our economy.

The happiness is valuable if it allows us to do something we ordinarily wouldn't, but we do have a better per-hammer deal in temples.

Temples cost 40H (for us) and produce 1 Happy. Post-calendar, the market costs 75H and produces +2 Happy. And then there's the +25% gold on top of that. Also, temples often have an indirect cost of a missionary (40H for +1 happy). So how are temples better?

By the time we have calendar and maybe wines, we're going to have a lot of excess happiness in this game I think. Also with trading (surely there's got to be one person in this game...) I think we can get all we need without markets if we want to.

I don't think that I've every played a game where I've had an unusable surplus of happy until very late game. So that's really framing my valuation of the market. I look forward to this new experience. :LOL:

[MindyMcCready]

Chariots will change the game completely on our border.

I don't quite see this. We'll get a temporary retreat from Retep but then he'll just stick a spear on top of the stack and then what do we do? So we send in say 3 chariots against a stack: spear defends; spear defends; chariot defends.

So in the end, as long as we're fighting a defensive war, we're going to be attacking his stack with axes for the 50-50 chance. The chariots are great for surprise attacks; for forcing tough decisions when on the offensive; and for attacking someone without spears, but in our situation I don't really seem them being a game changer.

Chariots showing up will likely have one noticeable effect on our war maneouvres with Retep - Retep will feel the need to consolidate his stack(s). I don't actually want this. With him floating that Axe + 2 chariots up there he's giving us good opportunities to get even farther up on the wins-losses ratio.

I don't think Ichabod can get to Carmen first, and I think it would be even stupider of him to try than it was for him to try his other plant. (The site isn't on a hill and it's even closer to our land and further from his.)

I don't think I said anything about Ichabod getting the Carmen site; certainly I'm not worried about that. Now Retep could cause us some troubles in that area of course by culturally blocking our roads or being able to easily pick off any units that try to travel that route.

And it's not either-or. We can build settlers in 4 turns! It's just that with a few chariots first, defending the Carmen plant will be much simpler. Retep will go "holy crap" and retreat everything since he has absolutely no spears.

So in 4T/6T Retep will have another 2/3 units or so (we'll have 2 settlers) and, as I indicated, I don't feel that chariots will be a total game changer and any chariot-induced retreat will be extremely short-lived. I don't see Carmen being easier to plant. In contrast, if Retep plants around that location, Carmen will be very tough/impossible to plant at that point.

[WilliamLP]

I don't quite see this. We'll get a temporary retreat from Retep but then he'll just stick a spear on top of the stack and then what do we do? So we send in say 3 chariots against a stack: spear defends; spear defends; chariot defends.

There's no "just". He has to build or chop it and the spear means one less axe, and it also means he can't split his stacks anymore - he just has to run one big one which is really easy to contain and reason about. So we still hit it with axes, but it's an easier fight (because the spear is free food) and there are fewer tactical options for him.

A respite of 5 turns is a really big deal, too. We still exceed him in food and production, and he's going to run out of forests.

Chariots showing up will likely have one noticeable effect on our war maneouvres with Retep - Retep will feel the need to consolidate his stack(s). I don't actually want this. With him floating that Axe + 2 chariots up there he's giving us good opportunities to get even farther up on the wins-losses ratio.

I totally want him to consolidate his stacks! For instance it's going to be hard to improve the silver right now with the way he can place 1-2 axes at strategic points. We'd have to get spears and axes on the silver tile to protect the worker, which means they aren't in range to defend the south anymore. It can be done but with a chariot it's not even an issue - he just can't use separate units anymore.

So in 4T/6T Retep will have another 2/3 units or so (we'll have 2 settlers) and, as I indicated, I don't feel that chariots will be a total game changer and any chariot-induced retreat will be extremely short-lived. I don't see Carmen being easier to plant. In contrast, if Retep plants around that location, Carmen will be very tough/impossible to plant at that point.

I would love him to invest 100 hammers in a settler for a city on flat ground that 4 shock axes can reach in two turns!

Edit: Also another point is the surprise factor. Retep won't know where we're planting, and shouldn't know we have chariots at all until we kill a couple of axes the first time.

[WilliamLP]

Oh wow:

Hello everyone,

I'm playing PB13 as Shaka of the Greeks. It's a RBMod game, where the agressive trait doesn't suck so bad. I think my position is good (there's hardly any updates in my thread, but I can give my password to anyone interested in checking out).

In this last weeks, I've been playing without much dedication and love for the game, having lost most of my interest for different reasons. So, I'm looking for a replacement. I know its hard to find one at this point in time, but, oh, well, I want to try. Of course, if I don't find one, I'll keep playing my turns.

Another good piece of news is that my thread comes with a very nice dedlurker, wetbandit.

If you are interested, post here or in my thread in the PB13 sub-forum.

Cheers!

I don't know his "different reasons" but I'm going to go ahead and irresponsibly call this a rage quit!! I don't know if a replacement, or him not caring about the game is good or bad for us though. Ideally some complete noob could take over.

[MindyMcCready]

I don't quite see this. We'll get a temporary retreat from Retep but then he'll just stick a spear on top of the stack and then what do we do? So we send in say 3 chariots against a stack: spear defends; spear defends; chariot defends.

There's no "just". He has to build or chop it and the spear means one less axe,

Fair enough. One whip later is all that we'll diverrt.

...and it also means he can't split his stacks anymore - he just has to run one big one which is really easy to contain and reason about,.....

I totally want him to consolidate his stacks! For instance it's going to be hard to improve the silver right now with the way he can place 1-2 axes at strategic points. We'd have to get spears and axes on the silver tile to protect the worker, which means they aren't in range to defend the south anymore. It can be done but with a chariot it's not even an issue - he just can't use separate units anymore.

What!?!?

If one mega-stack had been forking Turnadot & Barbiere we would absolutely have lost a city.

Conversely, the fact that he's got an axe + 2 chariots around LaTraviata + 3 axes by Barbiere means that we can hit either of those stack in a 2:1 basis. But we couldn't 2:1 him if he put all of his units together. If he consolidates into equal units as we have, then he is free to walk around our lands and get into city-fork location and there's not much that we can do to stop him. Our only recourse is to whip down every city and have more absolute power than he has invading.

Silver be damned - we can redevelop that later. There's a reason why you don't split your stack when on the offense. Carfeul what you wish for. :LOL:

A respite of 5 turns is a really big deal, too. We still exceed him in food and production, and he's going to run out of forests.

Fair enough, but one whip + travel time is all we're going to get in my mind. Also, he had 4K power increases in the past which I attributed to a spear (+Bacchus threat) so I doubt that we'll catch him so unawares. Only, if his army is deep inside our culture really which was a factor a few turns ago, but is less likely to be a factor again so soon.

As quickly as he may play his turns, that fork attack on Barbiere/Turnadot + chariots by LaTraviata was well thought out. It forced us to attack across a river which is less than ideal even though it worked out magnificiently. He's also completely dedicated to war, although the 7 axes that he's lost may take the wind out of his sails soon.

I would love him to invest 100 hammers in a settler for a city on flat ground that 4 shock axes can reach in two turns!

Fair enough, but archers will defend against our Shock axes.

Edit: Also another point is the surprise factor. Retep won't know where we're planting, and shouldn't know we have chariots at all until we kill a couple of axes the first time.

Valid point.

[MindyMcCready]

Oh wow:

Hello everyone,

I'm playing PB13 as Shaka of the Greeks. It's a RBMod game, where the agressive trait doesn't suck so bad. I think my position is good (there's hardly any updates in my thread, but I can give my password to anyone interested in checking out).

In this last weeks, I've been playing without much dedication and love for the game, having lost most of my interest for different reasons. So, I'm looking for a replacement. I know its hard to find one at this point in time, but, oh, well, I want to try. Of course, if I don't find one, I'll keep playing my turns.

Another good piece of news is that my thread comes with a very nice dedlurker, wetbandit.

If you are interested, post here or in my thread in the PB13 sub-forum.

Cheers!

I don't know his "different reasons" but I'm going to go ahead and irresponsibly call this a rage quit!! I don't know if a replacement, or him not caring about the game is good or bad for us though. Ideally some complete noob could take over.

How can it be a rage quit? Sure he lost a ridiculous city plant to us, but I can't imagine that he thought anything other than 'didn't work out but worth the risk'. Could SlowCheetah have made an effective move? Ichabod really does have a small army and 2 fronts.

De-sert Hill! De-sert Hill! De-sert Hill! De-sert Hill! :LOL:

Jeez, if it really is some type of rage-quit, imagine what he would have done with the setbacks that we've been playing though. Perfectionist much?