Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[darrelljs]

Just to make things clearer, here are some of the main points from Labour's manifesto:

-increase taxes for highest earners and corporations
-renationalize the railways as private franchises expire (not forced nationalization)
-create at least one publicly owned energy company in every region of the UK, and cap energy bills
-abolish tuition fees
-more funding for the NHS and social Care
-rolling back the benefit cuts already passed by the conservatives
-rent control

None of that is unreasonable. 

Darrell

[Commodore]

Looking at the breakdown...almost seems like you're seeing a consolidation into more of a two-party system. Tories and Labour both seem to have made gains at the expense of the UKIP, SNP, and Lib-Dems, etc. That's interesting to me. The American two-party system isn't exactly the antithesis of coalition government; it's more that you see the coalitions before the election, not after. 2016 was the beginning of a realignment, but I don't think it'll mean the end of "Republicans" and "Democrats", more that those labels stay the same as the coalitions shift.

From across the pond, sure looks like the English are screwed one way or the other barring Future Tech™.

[mackoti]

How I 'love' it when the word communism is used to silence anyone who doesn't want the neocon wet dream of exploiting the masses even more...call it what you want, I am happy to see Sanders and Corbyn rise in popularity. Things have become so bad in the world regarding disparity, something needs to happen here.

Yes indeed Sanders and Corbyn are great examples, for example Sanders cares so much about the poor that  he got for himself a superb mansion on lakeside(he closed  the gap, was poor and now is clooser to the rich) and Corbin calling hammas and others terorist organizations his friends.

I was in london when the riots were on street 2008-2009, becasue the governement cut welfare for some people, they were burning cars and saying that there is no work.Me as imigrant which i had a hard time getting my papers and all permits i found plenty of work and there was more but thye didnt have.They didnt wanted to work they wanted the free stuff. Even more then that i worked alonf some english man and when i asked if he is married he said is not worth because his girlfriend which has 3 kids with him gets free house ,and other free stuff so not worth to get married.

Because i wanted to win more I chanched my job and I met another guy, which proposed me a very nice deal, he was receiving a 'council house' i think that was the name  and he offered to me to stay in that flat for just 400 puond/month , and man was so tempting for me becasue were i was staying i was paying near 400/month for a very small room(3x2 m), and that guy was young, healthy and of course he would had stayed with his parents.

What i wanna say if you wanna help people is not giving freebies but making that responsable and what Corbin and  sanders are talking is not at all is just take from rich and gave to the poor. For example if i chanched my job and worked harder they actualy penalized me, for every penny above 40k /year they would take 40%,this sounds right to you? If someone works more lets take from him and gave to the gys which burns cars because they just remained without some benefits?

[Mr. Cairo]

I was in London during those riots mackoti. Those people weren't upset about losing benefits at all, idk where you got that. Some people were upset about a police shooting and some other people saw it as a chance to riot. It had nothing to do with benefit cuts. If people were going to riot over that then all of the UK would have been rioting for the last decade.

The examples you gave were all people cheating the welfare system, and not representative.

Also, I'd like to point out that most of the welfare cuts under the Conservatives were in-work benefits. Tax credits and child benefits for people working low-wage jobs, and not welfare for people out of work (which is where most of the cheats are).

As for taxes, well, that's a debate that'll never end, however, if I ever made enough money to go into am upper tax bracket, I'd be happy to pay more in tax, since I'd still have enough money to have a very nice quality of life.

[AdrienIer]

Welfare fraud in the uk is estimated between 1 and 3bn pounds a year, while tax fraud is around 20-30bn a year. It's the same in most of the world (actually welfare fraud in the UK seems very high compared to other countries). Yet you mostly hear people complaining about welfare fraud, "I once knew a guy who got free stuff".

Also I'm sick of the "you can't care about the poor unless you live in a favella" argument.

[mackoti]

I was in London during those riots mackoti. Those people weren't upset about losing benefits at all, idk where you got that. Some people were upset about a police shooting and some other people saw it as a chance to riot. It had nothing to do with benefit cuts. If people were going to riot over that then all of the UK would have been rioting for the last decade.

The examples you gave were all people cheating the welfare system, and not representative.

Also, I'd like to point out that most of the welfare cuts under the Conservatives were in-work benefits. Tax credits and child benefits for people working low-wage jobs, and not welfare for people out of work (which is where most of the cheats are).

As for taxes, well, that's a debate that'll never end, however, if I ever made enough money to go into am upper tax bracket, I'd be happy to pay more in tax, since I'd still have enough money to have a very nice quality of life.

Well, i talk with few of them and they said that to me so they were uniformed like me  as well.I know from what started and what turned into the final. I dont know if  that cheating is not representitiv for welfare, becasue thousands of gipsies went from romania to england to bennefit from that system.And among the people i worked were many more which were doing this stuff so i would not say is not representative.How many needs to cheat to be representative? 10%,20%50%?

We have the situation here in Romania were people refuse to work becasue governement gave them a small amount of money to them.In some cities factory was opened and no workers for the factory becasue the factory was paying just 3 times the money they got and didnt worth.

[mackoti]

Welfare fraud in the uk is estimated between 1 and 3bn pounds a year, while tax fraud is around 20-30bn a year. It's the same in most of the world (actually welfare fraud in the UK seems very high compared to other countries). Yet you mostly hear people complaining about welfare fraud, "I once knew a guy who got free stuff".

Also I'm sick of the "you can't care about the poor unless you live in a favella" argument

And some cases i presented i dont think are counted like fraud, for example that moom deserved to be helped, so I dont know how exactly this fraud is estimated.And that poor boy needed to stay somewere.
Well I was talking about the efect of all this stuff on people,like making them belive goverment needs to take care all theyr needs(they said they will do that in romania 60 years ago and was in dizaster).So you realy think Sanders and Corbyn realy cares about people?I think when lecturing people how to be modest and give to others yourself need to be modest and give to others.So yeah not necesary a 'favella'(I googled to find what is) but more modesty could be good.
PS: Dont belive that i am rich and I try to keep everything for me.I lived many years in what you west world call 'deep poverty' , but i worked hard(I was working in london and hear all those acuses that I steal theyr jobs,but still love england),  and i managed to do something with my life.Still not rich now as i live a modest life(I cant afford to get civ6yet,waiting for sales) but I see around me how the people which say they care about poor are the richiest in romania and how the poor acuse veryone but the dont try to be more responsable.

But at least England and US has the money to pay all this kind of stuff, while Romania....

[Mr. Cairo]

There will always be people trying to cheat the system and get free stuff without doing any work. But you can't hurt those people without also hurting the people just down on their luck who genuinely need help. The only way to deal with that is expensive reform of the systen. Far easier and cheaper to just use the bad apples as justification to cut welfare altogether.

[mackoti]

There will always be people trying to cheat the system and get free stuff without doing any work. But you can't hurt those people without also hurting the people just down on their luck who genuinely need help. The only way to deal with that is expensive reform of the systen. Far easier and cheaper to just use the bad apples as justification to cut welfare altogether.

I will never say to cut it,but as you said some new thinking is need.And they are smart and they knew what need to do, but they dont wanna lose votes (at least here in Romania).And mostly my post was anyway against these 2 people which were named like great people ,when actualy they are fraud(bernie) or side with terorists(oh sorry I think in England, France is forbidden to say something like that as will be considered hate speech).

[Mr. Cairo]

There will always be people trying to cheat the system and get free stuff without doing any work. But you can't hurt those people without also hurting the people just down on their luck who genuinely need help. The only way to deal with that is expensive reform of the systen. Far easier and cheaper to just use the bad apples as justification to cut welfare altogether.

I will never say to cut it,but as you said some new thinking is need.And they are smart and they knew what need to do, but they dont wanna lose votes (at least here in Romania).And mostly my post was anyway against these 2 people which were named like great people ,when actualy they are fraud(bernie) or side with terorists(oh sorry I think in England, France is forbidden to say something like that as will be considered hate speech).

If that was considered hate speech then the editors of 80% of Britain's newspapers would be in jail.