[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Miguelito]

Are we at war yet? Ie could I log in for a look without violating a turn split?
civac's whipping hard. Although I don't know if 7 cities count as such at his size...

[Amicalola]

Not yet! The more feedback the merrier. Although I am going to post a big overview of everything in a couple hours since we’ll be at war in 1-2 turns, so maybe wait until after that.

Edit: you think civac’s whipping hard, you should see what I’ve done to our poor empire...

[Amicalola]

Pre-War Overview
So, at least one person is yet to concede, which means we get to try our dogpile. Here is an overview screenshot first:


Graphic Design is my Passion. 



These are the general directions that I expect everyone involved in the dogpile to attack in. Commodore is taking the Southeast, Gavagai the West, Us the Northeast, and (apparently) Lewwyn has sent a small contingency to assist us, but I am hoping he might land some units across the ocean. AT has a slight chance of landing some units, and while I don't think it's realistic, I DO think it would be very cool, so I included it anyway.  We have 6 turns of peace left with Jowy, and we'll probably need to be ready to defend a revenge attack of some description.

Here is our main stack, as well as Lewwyn's strange assistance force. 



You can probably tell from the scoreboard, but I have whipped out a shitload of population into knights and catapults/trebuchets. Here is the power graphs:



I did it! I learned how to whip for a war! Uh, hopefully not too much.   I have also turned almost all of our mines into windmills, which admittedly suck right now. My general plan here has been 'whip off our excess windmil pop while we're in Slavery, then grow onto them in the GA/Serfdom period. That means we probably have 2-3 turns of whipping left, before we need to start growing onto windmills again. Let me know if this is a stupid strategy; it felt right at the time, and I didn't want to bother you will all my questions during the turns.

In the war itself, I expect us to meet the most resistance due to attacking the core, followed by Gav, with Commodore probably having an easier time initially, due to attacking more on the outskirts, but joining us quickly. For example, Civac's border-fortress with Commodore at Diegesis is nearly undefended. I'm still thinking about where to move our units. I was originally going to attack in 2 turns from now, and I think that's probably still correct, but Civac moved this annoying sentry chariot and can see our stack earlier than I wanted him to. Oh well, he'd have seen it next turn anyway. It was pretty stupid to move the stack to that tile though, I should have thought about that more.



I think we probably want to raze Literatteur, as it's not a very good city. Unfortunately, it's too well defended to just knight snipe, so I guess we go in on that city first? Then head towards Conurbation.



I have also got 3 galleys here, which will send 6 knights to take Terpsichorean. I should have made it 4, not sure what I was thinking. Might need to do 2 waves, with a couple of trebs in the first, if Civac puts any more units in. He has slavery now, so actually he'll definitely have more units in. 2 Waves it is. 



One other stupid mistake, while we're noting those. I didn't give us a backup GP city!   This is pretty obviously dumb, and basically if we get a merchant from Aperol we're a bit boned. I have actually delayed the GP 3 turns by not running merchants and reducing the odds of that, but a) I shouldn't have needed to, and b) we might still get a great merchant anyway. Add that to the list of mistakes I've learnt to avoid in future; if nothing else, this game has been fantastic at piling those up. I suppose if it happens, we dry-convert to serfdom, and cry a great many tears.


Overall, if I had to rank the 8 players on likelihood of winning the game (NOT current strength), I would go:
1. Civac - He's more likely to crush our army than the other way around, I suspect
2. Lewwyn - Best expansion prospects, can't really lose his army in the dogpile. Pretty clear winner imo if Civac gets taken down.
3. Jowy - Amazing recovery, still 2nd in many demos. Might backstab us/Commodore
4. Us - Need to claim a lot of land, and still stuck in central position
5. Commodore - Us, but slightly worse
6. Gavagai - Too behind in tech
7. SD

8. AT


Our Shrine:


Hey, that's not bad.

Finally, Demos:


Whipping hurts...

Edit: I suppose we should use the extra turn of visibility that Civac got thanks to my mistake to perhaps feint at Conurbation?

[Miguelito]

Wait, have we conceded? I would hope that not, this is a fun (and, I suppose, instructive) game!

I'd maybe consider shifting the focus of the attack further north, with the idea of better splitting his defense between us and Commodore. Have to guards ourselves of course against his counter, but he should be pretty busy. What is his army composition like, mostly 1 movers or more knights heavy? Razing Diquisition would also leave his islands pretty exposed. How is the trireme balance? Sentry units on hills are mean

Not against the windmills at all. While we're in slavery, 1 food is not too far away from 2 hammers for city sizes 6-10 (and better below), and we also get commerce out of it. We played for serfdom ourselves in PB54 and it felt pretty great. I'm not sure you want to have serfdom in the GA though, because that is where we want to prepare the next one , and will most probably need caste for it, ideally together with pacifism. I am also pretty convinced that serfdom can hardly ever be worth a turn of anarchy, but you can count the yield and decide.

Also what is the prospect on tech? I understood that civac is pretty much set for Taj, do we want to compete for any of the other renaissance first to's (economics, lib)? Also, do we have temples/monasteries in appreciable numbers to make AP and Sankore worthwhile? Otherwise I'd suggest going straight for printing press / replaceable parts to boost our cottages and windmills. If you want pacifism during the GA philo first is good of course. It is easy to get carried away and lose focus on tech goals a bit at this stage of the game after guilds, and I think you have not written about it among all the warring, so maybe give it some thought.

[Tarkeel]

Wait, have we conceded? I would hope that not, this is a fun (and, I suppose, instructive) game!

There was a very conditional concession not that long ago:

I have noticed that recently pretty much everyone except Civac and myself are playng <15 minute turns. I don't especially want to concede, as I am both learning much from this game, and think a dogpile of Civac in the future could be quite fun. However, if I am the last one in the game to have not conceded, I do not want to be 'that guy' that is holding up the game while no one else has fun. So, this is an official concession, IF everyone else has too.

[Amicalola]

Wait, have we conceded? I would hope that not, this is a fun (and, I suppose, instructive) game!

I'd maybe consider shifting the focus of the attack further north, with the idea of better splitting his defense between us and Commodore. Have to guards ourselves of course against his counter, but he should be pretty busy. What is his army composition like, mostly 1 movers or more knights heavy? Razing Diquisition would also leave his islands pretty exposed. How is the trireme balance? Sentry units on hills are mean

Not against the windmills at all. While we're in slavery, 1 food is not too far away from 2 hammers for city sizes 6-10 (and better below), and we also get commerce out of it. We played for serfdom ourselves in PB54 and it felt pretty great. I'm not sure you want to have serfdom in the GA though, because that is where we want to prepare the next one , and will most probably need caste for it, ideally together with pacifism. I am also pretty convinced that serfdom can hardly ever be worth a turn of anarchy, but you can count the yield and decide.

Also what is the prospect on tech? I understood that civac is pretty much set for Taj, do we want to compete for any of the other renaissance first to's (economics, lib)? Also, do we have temples/monasteries in appreciable numbers to make AP and Sankore worthwhile? Otherwise I'd suggest going straight for printing press / replaceable parts to boost our cottages and windmills. If you want pacifism during the GA philo first is good of course. It is easy to get carried away and lose focus on tech goals a bit at this stage of the game after guilds, and I think you have not written about it among all the warring, so maybe give it some thought.

Thanks Tarkeel, you perfectly answered the first part.

That’s not a bad idea, although I’d be worried about Mulo. Civac’s army used to be 1-move based, but I’m not sure how, as that was a while ago. Our stack is quite weak against knights+collateral, I think I could have built it better with more pikes. Admittedly this is partly to fight Jowy originally. But anyway we could target conurbation and disquisition instead of litterateur?

Neither of us seem to have many triremes; his islands are much better than ours, so I think I haven’t built many to defend, and he can’t be bothered attacking.  I should have built more for attacking though. 

Ha, you might be right about Serfdom vs Caste in the GA. Not sure, but you probably are. D’oh. Still, serfdom will be great afterwards. Glad the windmills weren’t a terrible idea!!

You’re right, I haven’t thought enough about tech. Taj and the AP are both gone (to Covac and Commodore). I thought about running to lib while in the GA, but it might be gone by then (Civac can get there faster). So I guess printing press and rep parts make the most sense; thanks for reminding me!! Still will consider lib, as no one has education yet. Shame the GA is delayed; big oops there. Philo was partly for lib and partly for pacifism during GA (I’m not sure if we want, but I think very possible because building units mostly anyway).

[Mjmd]

Sorry I haven't been contributing much. Mig has been providing overall good advice. I agree that those power graph spikes look much better than the first go around, so that is a good use of time.

I like an initial mainland assault and then transition to island hoping. Let someone else's mainland stack get hit while you take his (as you mentioned) good island cities. One of my main multiplayer lessons is that weakening from the sea is VERY annoying / avoids collateral boom booms. Also, about tech I'm not as much into rifling as I was in PB52.... Cannon might be the way to go?

Other random thought is that I do like windmills in a golden age.

[Miguelito]

Cannon might be the way to go?

in general I'd agree but a) sea warfare isn't all that important to us right now, b) the economy benefits a lot more from PP/RP than chemistry workshops (I think so at least, do we have any?) and c) at that point we're already almost at rifling.
But yeah, an alternative strategy is to ignore the economic bonus, get astronomy (also that does give observatories at least, but the beauty of PP/RP is that it's pasisvE), be a pain on the seas and go for chemistry->steel. But I have the feeling that this map is not the place for us to do that.

[Amicalola]

So I agree with both of your general sentiments that cannons>rifles most of the time. PB52 taught a lot of new lurkers that, I suspect. However, like Miguelito says, I think the hammers for rep parts will be incredibly useful for us, and rifling is then only 1 tech away, so I think we'll go for those instead.

Here is Civac's main(????) counter-stack:



His power is extremely high so I am a bit skeptical that he only has this many units here. On the other hand, he is about to fight 3 people. So I'm not sure. I've positioned in Mulo itself, so we can strike to fork Conurbation/Disquisition or Conurbation/Litterateur next turn. Time to crush/get crushed.

I am building a trireme/galley in 2 turns, and I think we'll attack the first island after that in 2 waves of 8 units each. 16 should be enough even with whips on Civac's end.

1 building we might want a lot of in the GA if we can somehow afford to not build units is a courthouse in many places. I have built literally 0 right now; they are so expensive!

[Amicalola]

I think at least Civac must be hiding some Siege, as 1 catapults is obviously not enough. I just wish I knew how much!