Some Elitist Rules Clarifications Needed

[KingOfPain]

But I wouldn't consider VK-SNOB multiclassed. I view it thusly: Game -> Character Style -> Character Concept.

Of course. That would be the the definition for most intented purposes. I stated I don't know anything about any of the mods that are out there so I have just used VK as an example, for the sake to have a name tag.

But a mod can (but not necessary) be a part of a multiclass. I have an example or 2 but I don't have time to list them before I head off to work. However, if you keep in mind that a mod is essentially a hack, or a collection of hacks then I am sure you wont need me to figure out how one can make a mod without changing the "Game -> Character Style -> Character Concept."


IronSnob is a different beast from Snob who does Ironman
IronSnob
Attika supplied the link to the discussion on the top of this thread :P

KoP

[Lemming]

But a mod can (but not necessary) be a part of a multiclass.

I don't see how a mod can be part of a multiclass. I'll need an example here.

IronSnob is a different beast from Snob who does Ironman.

I didn't follow the link when Attika posted it because I assumed it was just one particular person's interpretation of how to combine IM and SNOB, similar to how Charis (I think?) cleverly combined the SNOB BAR by restricting the character to unid'd uniques. SNOB-BAR wasn't a new variant, but a way of looking at a combination of two. To me, IronSnob looked like SNOB-IM, Ironman SNOB, etc., so I didn't feel a need to educate myself. Confusing naming.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

This one should have been obvious since we are talking Snob here.
Hack = Only Uniques can drop.
Hack = Shops sell only unique items and books of Snob spells.
Hack = Only Snobbish spell books can be dropped.

LoL
Hack = NPCs do not interact with player

D2 BN
Hack in cursed items
Hack = only cursed items can drop or sold by shop keeps.


KoP

[Lemming]

Hack = Only Uniques can drop.
Hack = Shops sell only unique items and books of Snob spells.
Hack = Only Snobbish spell books can be dropped.

In my Game -> Character Style -> Character Concept model, these things change the Game. Changing what items can drop introduces "abnormalities that deviate from the norm of that game." If the character always plays under the conditions you listed, the character's clearly not playing vanilla D1. The key observation, though, is that these changes, taken as a group: (1) cannot be modeled in-game without hacks (2) are incompatible in-game with vanilla D1 because players won't see the same drops. That's a different game, not a multiclass.

If the character does not always play under these conditions (i.e. the player turns them on/off at his pleasing), the character is playing two games, and that should be noted in any write-ups.

Hack = NPCs do not interact with player

This changes the way the game works, but you can model that change without a dat file (just don't talk to townies). Therefore, I view a character using this hack no different than I view one who voluntarily refuses to speak to townies. It's a restriction, but a multiclass?

Hack in cursed items
Hack = only cursed items can drop or sold by shop keeps.

Definitely changes the way the game works. A character playing under these conditions is playing "D2 with the following item generation changes." I don't see how that makes it a multiclass. Seems like a new game to me.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

No doubt you can call each of the examples new games, just as you can call a new variant a new variant.

Mods can come in any flavors. The LoL and D2 BN mods especially, are definitely VARIANT mods.

(Okay, you can argue that LoL is not a variant, but LoL qualifies to be part of a multiclass when combined with even one variant rule set.)

When you play a Variant mod, you are playing a Variant by default. It is that simple.

KoP

[Lemming]

(Okay, you can argue that LoL is not a variant, but LoL qualifies to be part of a multiclass when combined with even one variant rule set.)

Oh, I wasn't arguing whether LoL was a variant, if you thought that. I noted "No townies" alone is just a restriction because forcing LoL in gameplay would also require disabling the "Restart in Town" option at death screen. There'd be no way to model the "Trade only with other LoLs" rule, though, unless the player gamed only with others who used the same hacks.

When you play a Variant mod, you are playing a Variant by default.

Er, not necessarily. In your D2 BN example : "Hack in cursed items. Only cursed items can drop or be sold by shopkeeps." It's still possible to play Naked characters in this mod, so not all characters using the mod are BNs. Moreover, the mod doesn't force the player to use the most debilitating cursed items available. A BN would use the worst curses, but a player just looking for a light challenge might limit himself to whatever curses he can comfortably get by with. This "light challenge" character I'd just consider a mod character. A character who played the mod and used the worst cursed items available is one I might consider a "BN of (mod name)" because, conceptually, that's the BN. (I'm ignoring Streaking an cursed-hoarding for the moment.)

-Lemmy

[Scrape]

Over at the Team Variant Recruitment & Zoning forum, Attika made a post about ironman elitists.

The forum does not seem to be very active, and my curiosity drove me to port it here.

In his post he stated, "but I see durability on items being a serious issue by this point." This seems to be in reference to items given as birthday gifts (probably as well as those items that are found during the game).

I responded with the following: "What is your stance on using unique items that have been hiddenized? (By hiddenized I mean items that have had their durabilities boosted by hidden shrines.)"

For the complete thread, go here: Ironman Quartet Elitists?

In a way it makes the items even more elite.

So, what do you all think of the concept?

Edit: I am not saying I am for this, but I do not recall this topic being covered before.

[Nystul]

The rules don't forbid it. Some elitists may not like the idea of getting *used* birthday gifts, but otherwise it should be OK. In most cases it won't matter much. In this very unusual case, it might still not matter much An armorless sorcerer firing a 200 durability Needler is still an armorless sorcerer firing a Needler...

[Attika]

Well, you certainly couldn't do an Ironman game with Hiddenized items. The rules _do_ forbid that.

If it were just a SNOB run or something of that nature, eh, what's the point? Why stop at just adjusting the durability? If you are willing to change the durability of a given item like the Needler, why not change the durability of any item you wish to? What's to stop you? Then again, what's the point?

If you've changed the stats of the item, you've effectively changed the way the game gets played (and durability is a HUGE factor in IM games where no warrior is present -- so, no repair).

So, you could play it as such with Hiddenized Needlers, but a.) you couldn't call it an Ironman game and b.) you've effectively "altered the game" to play to your benefit, a tactic that others might use a harsher word to describe (i.e., cheating or cheese).



Attika

[Scrape]

I read your two posts about this. I have been thinking about so many other things that this does not seem to matter much, but it must matter if I am now taking the time to reply. (Or maybe not, I am not sure.) I will cut myself off before I blend into other topics and start ranting again.

Along with my poor attitude, I will create another exciting reply.

So this is also in response to your other post at the other forum.

Ironman is out then.

What is the point? Not that I am planning on playing any time soon, but others might enjoy it. It offers another element to the gameplay. They can legitimately spend the time making their items better. It might add more value to their items.

It might be cheesy, but to me it is not cheating.

As for SNOBs, they can get birthday gifts, so why not better birthday gifts? Does it make it too easy? Then why not avoid the birthday gifts as well. The rules say birthday gifts are okay, and it does not say hiddenized birthday gifts are not okay.

So many things players can do "alter the game." For ironman, I see your point, but for SNOBs, it does not seem good enough. To go back to my example, giving birthday gifts alters the game. It is in the rules, but hiddenized birthday gifts are not mentioned.

To me it is not cheating.

Edit: As I do so often, I want to state that I am really not trying to seem harsh. (Well, maybe a little.) It is just my varying mood. This is not a personal attack or what have you, just a direct reply.