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If it's between Varn and Flauros, I'd suggest Flauros. Vampires have an awesome military, and a beeline to it goes through economic techs. Varn's great too, but you've already got an adaptive leader who's great for teching.
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Amelia Wrote:Yup it reached me. Sorry for not replying though, my gmail is having a bit of a problem. Hard for me to even load anything, let alone reply.
np, let us know if the problem persists.
Amelia Wrote:What's the worldspell of Malakim? Extra priests right? I guess that works just as well as Vamps. Put me up for them then.
Not to mention Adaptive/Spiritual is slightly better than Flauros.
Yeah, nabaxo and I had a brief chat about Malakim vs Calabim. Sorry about the (lack of) formatting, I can fix it up if anyone wants:
Quote:16:46 me: really, the main reason i prefer malakim is that i prefer divine/arcane magic to vampires
nabasu: I like Malakim world-spell too
16:47 me: just the way i prefer to play
nabasu: Like 5-10 insta-ritualists
me: agree, could be very useful
nabasu: With a bunch of XP
me: eh, forget the XP, i'd probably use it on the turn we switch to another religion
16:48 can force temples more quickly
nabasu: Yeah, that's what I do
Nah, 5-10 insta-ritualists -> switch to another religion
Just an example
16:49 me: well, lots of possibilities, can probably figure it all out when we discuss religions
...
me: so... malakim or calabim?
(wish amelia was here to make this easier)
17:02 nabasu: True
I'm leaning Calabim at the moment, Malakim are good, but seem to be slightly to econ oriented, five super-cities Kuriotates,,,
17:03 Flauros is till Fin, so Aristograrian is still amazing for Vampires
me: there's nothing wrong with being econ orientated as long as that isnt the only thing your good at (unlike lanun or ljo's)
me: whats making me lean to malakim is lightbringers and sand lions
17:07 lightbringers can start with a bunch of xp from lots of things and can upgrade to mages instantly
nabasu: I heard Lightbringer's upgrade line is broken, yes
me: sand lions are too good, as long as there's desert (which isnt usually aa problem)
nabasu: Or to Rangers
17:08 And Varn is now CHA instead of SPI, it sucks for lightbringers btw
He starts SPI though
CHA is good since upgrades are cheaper
17:09 me: what? i thought CHA was the one that siwtches
nabasu: Lemme check again
me: and SPI is permanent
nabasu: Ah
Then there's nothing wrong with him
17:11 This is a good chatlog to post btw
me: agree
17:14 I think I'll decide until after lunch
Which is in less than two hours
17:15 me: alright, i should still be around for at least a few more hours
nabasu: Oh, we can still discuss, just giving myself a deadline
17:16 Don't plan on doing much work the next half-hour ;D
me: alright 
right now checking if grigori WS affects teammates
17:17 nabasu: Intuitively, it should
17:20 me: wow, no it doesnt
still, probably better for adventurer generation
17:21 nabasu: Weird
me: like rivers of blood i guess
nabasu: Look, Kurio are kind of versatile
17:22 Their horse-line is good, but can they get other real good synergies?
me: well aside from wanting smelting for jewelers, not really
they do have good palace mana
17:23 but otherwise they're flexible
17:24 nabasu: Who do they share palace mana with? Malakim?
me: they have sun, spirit and water
malakim have sun, mind and life
nabasu: I believe that Malakim has Sun and Spirit too
Really? :S
17:25 me: doubled sun is really nice for malakim
nabasu: Yeah, or for a scorched staff ;D
But we'd need enchantment mana for that
me: scorch is awesome for malakim, blinding light is awesome for anyone
17:26 nabasu: Agreed
me: and aurelis could be a good 3rd level spell if we stack sun
nabasu: Wait, why is scorched that awesome? Never make too much use of it
me: scorch? turns plains into desert
17:27 malakim have nomad for double movement and can summon sand lion
nabasu: OH
NOW I get it
me: awesome
Anyway, sounds like your happy with Varn. As mentioned above, I like them too. nabaxo, you want to pick Varn for us? (assuming your fine with it also)
EDIT:
HidingKneel Wrote:If it's between Varn and Flauros, I'd suggest Flauros. Vampires have an awesome military, and a beeline to it goes through economic techs. Varn's great too, but you've already got an adaptive leader who's great for teching.
Adaptive doesn't need to be used for teching (Raider Centaurs anyone?), and Varn can have a pretty good magic military late game with Lightbringers (even if there's a lot of upgrading involved). I'll admit it's a close one between the two though, as even nerfed Vamps in EitB are still awesome.
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Dual Adaptive leaders make for awesome. I'll go ahead.
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Mardoc Wrote:Man, you guys do like to mess up plans...
I'm liking Malakim already. 
Anyway, we only need 4 leaders for the last pick. Since Malakim focus on the Disciple and Arcane trees, ideally our last pick should be someone from there. I can already say my top 4 are Amurites, Grigori, Keelyn and Calabim:
Amurites - I know a lot about them, being the first FFH civ I got good at. Arcane Lacuna is awesome and can be a game changer late. Govannon is insane, aside from giving arcane units free promotions every unit is an adept, every Priest is a mage, Druids and certain religious heroes are archmages. With the Cave of Ancestors being a Pagan Temple replacement and teammates giving mana, our first adepts can start out with a ton of experience (beeline to sorcery?). Firebows are pretty nice too, but probably won't be teched. Trouble is they have nothing early and will have to rely on the other two.
Grigori - Same as before, except having 3 ADA leaders is tempting. Seriously, since arcane techs are more on our list grigori are still sweet, although whether they are better than amurites is debatable.
Keelyn - Summoner puppets, dont need to say much more. Sadly beelining Gibbon isn't a instant win in EitB, in fact with puppets not adding to summoning cap i really have a hard time seeing how keelyn is worthwhile. Still, has a number of fun things in loki, freaks and revelery and could probably find a number of ways to be useful.
Calabim - Not much to say here; Kurio's, Malakim and Vamps?!? Sadly the three don't really coordinate well together tech wise and I expect they'll be long gone, but who knows? Vamps can beat every other option still available.
Others? Even with Hallowed ground, Sheaim could be good. PZ's don't kill but are still nice, and EoD can easily compare to Grigori and Amurite arcane units. Not sure what else is worthwhile without taking a different tech path, which is risky since we're going down two different tech paths already.
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Of those you've listed, I like Flauros > Keelyn > Dain. I wouldn't go the Grigori, though. Adventurers pay off very late if you're going down the arcane line.
Other leaders to consider: Auric (like you mentioned earlier, he's a pretty good arcane leader now. Also, a rush to philosophy for priests of winter symergizes well with Varn and Cardith, both of whom benefit from having lots of religious options).
I think there's also a case for Falamar and/or Hannah. The Lanun don't have any special military units of their own, but will be great to help the team tech. Falamar's adaptive. As for Hannah: well, the whole team can benefit from having one financial member, to shoulder all the maintenance costs. And if you go up the mounted line, Hannah can make raiders horsemen, while Cardith uses his adaptive trait for something else.
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Vamps is interesting if they're the last pick. Sure, they're out of line for everything else, but frankly Vamps are strong enough to make it a good pick no matter what.
Amurites... is frankly a deadweight. The only good thing they have would be their world spell, but do we want a deadweight civ for a worldspell?
Keelyn. Since we're going the arcane path anyways, she's easily a good pick.
I would like to point out the Lanun though. They're Adaptive enough (hint: Falamar) to go for any line, while being a strong techer as well.
I don't really like Sheaim now with Hallowed Ground. PZs are good yes, but they are others to fill in that role. Neither am i really liking Grigori now since we have Malakim. Getting a tech that does everything for Malakim but nothing for Grigori seems unwise.
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HidingKneel Wrote:Other leaders to consider: Auric (like you mentioned earlier, he's a pretty good arcane leader now. Also, a rush to philosophy for priests of winter symergizes well with Varn and Cardith, both of whom benefit from having lots of religious options).
That's true, Philo is certainly a less costly beeline for Varn then for Hippus. They should definitely be reconsidered.
HidingKneel Wrote:I think there's also a case for Falamar and/or Hannah. The Lanun don't have any special military units of their own, but will be great to help the team tech. Falamar's adaptive. As for Hannah: well, the whole team can benefit from having one financial member, to shoulder all the maintenance costs. And if you go up the mounted line, Hannah can make raiders horsemen, while Cardith uses his adaptive trait for something else.
Amelia Wrote:I would like to point out the Lanun though. They're Adaptive enough (hint: Falamar) to go for any line, while being a strong techer as well.
Even if Lanun are still available by then, Cardith is already doing what Falamar could do. Also, we don't need another techer, Cardith and Varn are plenty considering the cheaper cost of the EitB tech tree. Likewise with 2 ADA leaders we're not really desperate for leader traits either. What we need is a good civ, and the Lanun aren't that.
Amelia Wrote:Amurites... is frankly a deadweight. The only good thing they have would be their world spell, but do we want a deadweight civ for a worldspell?
How exactly are Amurites a deadweight? I'll admit I'm slightly biased and early on I quite agree, but post Sorcery and especially post Arcane Lore they are far from deadweight.
Amelia Wrote:I don't really like Sheaim now with Hallowed Ground. PZs are good yes, but they are others to fill in that role. Neither am i really liking Grigori now since we have Malakim. Getting a tech that does everything for Malakim but nothing for Grigori seems unwise.
Fair enough.
So right now we have Calabim, Illians, Amurites, Keelyn and Lanun under consideration.
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Question: can Govannon teach spells to teammates, or only to Amurite units? I assume it's the second. But if it's the first, that's amazing synergy with Varn.
Assuming the second, I'd rank those choices Flauros > Lanun > Keelyn > Amurite > Auric. (Regarding the Lanun: you can never have too much tech power.)
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HidingKneel Wrote:Question: can Govannon teach spells to teammates, or only to Amurite units? I assume it's the second. But if it's the first, that's amazing synergy with Varn.
Sadly it's the second. Still, Amurite horses can be taught and can keep up with kurio/malakim stacks and have the same effect (no bonus for arcane units though, although with sand lions malakim don't really need it).
HidingKneel Wrote:(Regarding the Lanun: you can never have too much tech power.)
This seems to be the main discussion point. With tower, culture and altar victories disabled, the game will not end peacefully. There will come a point where tech is no longer necessary and production/military is all that matters. With EitB's cheaper tech tree and civics which boost cottages (especially with Kurio's), this will probably come quicker then what we're probably used to (although whether this will come quick enough to justify not taking Lanun is debatable). Since Kurio's can only build 5 units a turn (unless we have guild of the nine), Kurio's will be significantly less useful when that happens. Lanun are similar, they are powerful only because they can get ahead in tech quickly, without that there are far better civs out there. Having one civ with this downside is fine, two is too much of a downside.
Anyway, the other teams all need to make a choice before it gets back to us. Hopefully they make this discussion easier by removing some of our choices.
May 10th, 2012, 11:26
(This post was last modified: May 10th, 2012, 13:40 by Amelia.)
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Biggest problem with Amurites is just the number of turns to get everything. You want Govannon, no question. Then it's the question of mages or firebows, but for mages you need a lot of mana sources, cave of ancestors, and a lot of money to upgrade them into the mages.
Firebows you want archery, bowyers, Govannon guidance, the exp needed for the second spell...
Edit: In response to bottom, seperate mana nodes.
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