PB30 Setup Thread

[Alhazard]

Settings vote post:
- a. Most important is leader/civ pick style (snake pick/snake pick with India, Inca and maybe FIN banned/lurkers select 3 combos for each player/random three combos for each player)

- b. Then it's how the lurkers set the handicaps:
- b1. Lushness of capital (yes/no)
- b2. Nearby luxuries (yes/no)
- b3. Space (yes/no)
- b4. Neighbours (yes/no)

- c. Events (off/on)
- d. Huts (off/on)
- e. Speed (normal/fast)
- f. Difficulty (mapmaker's decision/prince/monarch/emperor)
- g. Barbs (off/on/raging)
- h. See starts before picking (yes/no)

- i. Version (BTS/RTR 2.7.x/RTR 3.0.x/TOW) BTS wins for compatibility.

Then if BTS wins:
- j. Scout start (yes/no)
- k. Bans: Nukes, War Elephants (except Khmer), Corps, SoZ, Blockades, Diplo Victory (accept/reject)
- l. Great Lighthouse (mapmaker's decision/on/off)
- m. Espionage (off/on but no spies - settle or start golden age with a Great Spy if you get one/on but no missions/on)

My votes are:

- a. Snake pick with bans

- b1. yes
- b2. yes
- b3. yes
- b4. yes

- c. Events: off
- d. Huts: off
- e. Speed: normal
- f. Difficulty: mapmakers decision
- g. Barbs: on
- h. See starts: yes

- i. Version: BTS

- j. Scout start: yes
- k. Bans: accept
- l. Great Lighthouse: mapmakers decision
- m. Espionage: on but no spies

Did I miss anything? If not over to you guys.

Player Roster:
- Old Harry (Fintourist is just going to Monday-morning quarterback me, no sandboxing )
- Molach
- Ipecac
- Gavagai
- Dantski (is Kuro going to lurk you?)
- TheWannabe
- Greywolf
- Alhazard
- Cheater Hater?

A. lurkers select 3 combos for each player but not a deal breaker
B. Yes 1-4. I do believe this means lurkers take these factors into creating imbalanced starts and handicapping on skill.
C. Events Off
D. Huts Off
E. Quick but ok with normal
F. Difficulty map makers decision
G. Barbs off but ok with majority
H. See start yes
I. BTS
J. Scout only with settler
K. Bans: Do we really need to ban SoZ and Corps? Not a deal breaker.
L. GLH: Map maker discretion
M. Espionage - on but no spies - settle or start golden age with a Great Spy if you get one/on but no missions.

I am working as a team preferably with someone else in PST time zone.

[Commodore]

Let corps breathe! (Just maybe not Sid's)

Also, heyo REM, that makes nine?

[Commodore]

Also, given the immense amount for the lurkers to discuss, might be good to kick off the subforum.

[ipecac]

a) Lurkers select 3 combos
b1-4) Yes
c) off
d) off
e) anything
f) anything
g) off
h) no

j) yes
k) accept
l) No (deal breaker)
m) On but not spies and any Great Spy cannot be used to spy or do missions.

[Old Harry]

Is there any particular reason to go for 9 players over 8?

I'm thinking I might stay in the wings in case someone drops out during setup--BTS makes it a little less appetizing, and I still don't know if I want a second game at this point.

The more players the harder it is for lurkers to do the ranking . Anyway thanks for helping get this going CH!

I mainly vote to give lurkers extended powers.
So votes are similar to Old H. Only difference is except picks - I'd like to have a choice of 2 picks from lurkers. They can then have fun by giving a good choice and a not-so-good choice to a weak player, and see if he grabs the 'right' one.
This is not a dealbreaker as I will be outvoted and will becore snake pick, but that is my preference, at least.

I find it important that all the b1 - b4 should be 'yes'. If not this is not the game I had in mind and will bow out.

Did you miss corps? They should be off, perhaps? And navel blockades? I have little experience with these on in MP civ, but notice they tend to be off.

Looks like I'm the one getting outvoted on the snake pick :P

And looks like everyone agrees with you on b so far.

Those are all under k, so should be banned (although it might be close for corps - I'm not that fussed about those actually.)

- b. Then it's how the lurkers set the handicaps:
- b1. Lushness of capital (yes/no)
- b2. Nearby luxuries (yes/no)
- b3. Space (yes/no)
- b4. Neighbours (yes/no)

Can you explain a little bit more of what you're thinking here? My understanding was that the idea for the map was that someone was going to roll something random, maybe do some very very light balancing on it to get rid of absurd extremities of the map generator (e.g. triple-wet-corn-quad-grass-gems capitals on the one side and plains-cow-only-food capitals on the other side), and then the lurkers would rank each position and each player. Player Rank 1 would then get Start Rank 8, Player 2 gets Start 7, etc. Are b1-b4 supposed to be factors the lurkers should consider for each start?

Yeah, those were all the things I could think of map-related that lurkers could take into account when rating and adjusting starts for players. If you've got more we can add them to the list. I was hoping the rebalancing would be fairly light, but you never know...

Yeah, the proposed player input on how the lurkers are meant to rank the starts, what they are and aren't meant to take into account doesn't really work.

What would work better?

Will lurk and join in the ranking of players, much controversy awaits

If you guys will have me I would like to join too, unsure what number you are at but keen for another game while I have time for them.

Excellent, back up to nine! (Lurkers bear in mind that REM should on no account have iron )

[Old Harry]

j - does scout start mean everyone gets a warrior and scout at start? If so then yes

It means no-one starts with a warrior, so you don't get Mortiused.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, the proposed player input on how the lurkers are meant to rank the starts, what they are and aren't meant to take into account doesn't really work.

What would work better?

What would work is if any particular lurker will just take everything about a starting location into account when choosing how to rank it. You can't really vote for people to ignore or undervalue some aspect, nor can you make a lurker understand how to properly value say, "space" by voting to have this as a necessary part of the rating. Whatever the vote, each lurker will, in practice, rank the starts in accordance with his competence and understanding of the game, it's best to leave it at that. Forcing any more formal requirements on how lurkers should rank the starts will likely just cause bizarre outcomes.

For example, rather than ranking the starts the lurkers could rank each aspect of a start ("lushness", "space", ...) 1 to 10, and these scores would then be aggregated into the start's score, and then ranking of all starts will be done by their average scores, but most likely the resulting ranking will be worse than if players just rank the starts holistically -- if only because the relative importance of factors varies greatly, and they all interact with each other in non-obvious ways.

[Mardoc]

Can you explain a little bit more of what you're thinking here? My understanding was that the idea for the map was that someone was going to roll something random, maybe do some very very light balancing on it to get rid of absurd extremities of the map generator (e.g. triple-wet-corn-quad-grass-gems capitals on the one side and plains-cow-only-food capitals on the other side), and then the lurkers would rank each position and each player. Player Rank 1 would then get Start Rank 8, Player 2 gets Start 7, etc. Are b1-b4 supposed to be factors the lurkers should consider for each start?

Yeah, those were all the things I could think of map-related that lurkers could take into account when rating and adjusting starts for players. If you've got more we can add them to the list. I was hoping the rebalancing would be fairly light, but you never know...

Hmm. I'm rather confused - are we just ranking the starts and players and assigning #1 to Person #9, or do you also want lurkers to adjust the terrain per "Lurkers buff and nerf the starts appropriately for each player", or add other factors like "Krill gets no happiness whatsoever, Fintourist and I get landlocked and surrounded by civs who start with extra great artists)"

Also, do picks come before or after you see your starts? Can we say 'oh, Harry chose Agri/Wheel, let's make sure he's got a Fish start'?

[Old Harry]

Those votes

- a. leader/civ pick style Snake 2 (OH, Dantski) Lurkers select 3 4 (Molach, Gavagai, Alhazard, Ipecac)
- b1. Lushness of capital (yes/no) Yes 6
- b2. Nearby luxuries (yes/no) Yes 6
- b3. Space (yes/no) Yes 6
- b4. Neighbours (yes/no) Yes 6
- c. Events (off/on) Off 4 on 1 (Gavagai)
- d. Huts (off/on) Off 4 on 1 (Gavagai)
- e. Speed (normal/fast) Normal 2 (OH, Gavagai), quick 1 (Alhazard)
- f. Difficulty (mapmaker's decision/prince/monarch/emperor) Mapmaker 4
- g. Barbs (off/on/raging) On 2 (OH, Gavagai), off 2 (Alhazard, Ipecac)
- h. See starts before picking (yes/no) Yes 3 (OH, Gavagai, Alhazard), no 2 (Dantski, Ipecac)
- i. Version (BTS/RTR 2.7.x/RTR 3.0.x/TOW) BTS wins for compatibility. BTS 4
- j. Scout start (yes/no) Yes 4
- k. Bans: Nukes, War Elephants (except Khmer), Corps, SoZ, Blockades, Diplo Victory (accept/reject) corps banned 2 (Dantski, Ipecac), corps not banned 2 (Gavagai, Alhazard) SoZ banned 3 (OH, Gavagai, Ipecac) SoZ unbanned 1 (Alhazard) all other bans 4
- l. Great Lighthouse (mapmaker's decision/on/off) Mapmaker 2 (OH, Alhazard), NO! DEFY RESOLUTION! 1 (Ipecac)
- m. Espionage (off/on but no spies - settle or start golden age with a Great Spy if you get one/on but no missions/on) on but no spies 4 (OH, Dantski, Alhazard, Ipecac), Full 1 (Gavagai)

I'm happy to change my Lighthouse vote to no so that Ipecac doesn't get a 3 happy penalty in all his cities...

[Bacchus]

Oh, I missed the "adjust" word there! If we let lurkers mess with the map to make it player-appropriate, it will never get finished Moreover, it conflicts with the handicap: if we first rank the starts and assign them to players, and then start adjusting them, the adjustments could well affect the ranking, at least in the view of some lurkers.