(SPOILERS) Amicalola and Irismono Try Their Best

[Suite]

Hi,

I read your thoughts and I'm glad that you are not throwing in the towel but planning the resistance! I would really appreciate some pictures, especially of the location of the southern copper, but also of the demographics (remember that they are delayed and a whip in turn 40 means the correspondent spike in the graphic of 42), whips (visible in PBSpy) and food/hammer storage in the cities. Don't worry, I won't make extensive plans for you and/or criticise every minor move, but it would help me a lot.

Without knowing some important details, I can just express my general feelings about your newly founded plans. They could be too risky, as they are banking somewhat on El Grillo playing a bit careless and you having enough time to execute. A standard War Chariot has 88% chance of beating a Quechua in a 20% defense city on a hill; still 74% when the Quechua is fully fortified. My goal is not to convince you to follow my idea/advice/what you want...I'm just curious f.e., how long archery is going to take until finished so I/we/you can assess the situation better. Likewise, is the copper location in the south known to El Grillo? If so, how many turns is the distance to his cities, measured in Chariot turns? As I mentioned, pictures would be very helpful (but no pressure here, you are free to do what you want!).

Regarding sneaky beaky: Metagaming is not per se unsportsmanlike in my opinion. However, if you was El Grillo - what exactly would you execute any different when your opponent writes a popular/regular/scarce or no story? You can't hide, as everyone sees when a city is founded. I think it's not needed (and in a very unfortunate case, someone could raise concerns about you fighting a war with close to zero time investment. This will likely not happen, but you never know).

In any case, good luck. Hopefully you achieve some fo your goals!

[Miguelito]

That worker costs how many hammers, 45 with EXP in BTS? So you'd need him chop two extra forests and would still not yet break even. Very much doubt it's worth it vs. faster settler/ more quechuas (btw, have you simmed how many you would need on average to defeat a WC ion attack?)
Also, depending on how fast EG attacks, you might be defending at 40% culture defense, so the monument would still pay off

[Amicalola]

Hey gang, on phone travelling but quick response.

Slept on most thoughts and agree playing mind games pretty pointless with pbspy + demos. Worker will either lose the game immdiately or give us a chance, where no worker Loses the game in 10-20 turns anyway. Need to have a route up ASAP, possibly just count on some lucky results :/ plans are very risky, but because otherwise we must turtle and get choked; might as well be dead anyway.

But will probably overflow couple quechuas after worker before settler for defense. Think I need about 6-7 total, have 4 right now. while settler can come out after roads being built realistically. Southern copper is in a quite tricky spot for him to attack, will post pictures tonight when home.

EG has the two chariots we know about, plus two more that are probably one the way, plus (I think) one more closer to home just built. Going to defend vs 4 probably, although latter two are at least a couple turns away. Unfortunately I think first 4 attack before monument, although if the culture ends up saving me I will laugh.

[Amicalola]

Ah, Fuck. I've cheated by mistake according to PB etiquette. Whipped in not my half of the turn order. What should I do???

[Amicalola]

Do we need to reload? I wouldn't change any of my actions other than that stupid impulse whip

[Amicalola]

I sent El Grillo a private message about it, as well as one on discord to see what he says, since ultimately I guess it's up to him. Happy to switch away from what I whipped (the worker), or reload, or do whatever he wants basically, since I'm objectively in the wrong.

[Amicalola]

Ok, he says maybe a reload from the least obtrusive point, which I'm all for. Don't know if I should post in tech thread?

[Miguelito]

You should. And also PM Ramk.

[Amicalola]

Have logged in, am definitely dead next turn. Ah well, that was always likely once Gooch fell. Going to make a little post re: Mistakes I Made, as usual feedback is always useful and appreciated.

Super Major Critical Game Losing Mistakes (Big Oops)
- AH first instead of BW: Self explanatory, have already talked about at length, but if get BW earlier I can chop, generally go a lot faster and make settling decisions a little slower. Huge, Huge mistake, much bigger than anything else, definitely underestimated Just How Good BW is.
- Settling Gooch on the Northwest copper instead of the Southeast: this is less of a big deal in my opinion, but still a huge deal. If EG had attacked 5 turns later, it would have been the right call imo. However, I should have realised he would've attacked when he did and not underestimated him. War Chariots are fast, I knew that, it was just optimistic to plan the way I did. Massive mistake. 
- Not doing more sims to get my growth curve perfect. This is partly a time issue, but I definitely could have done better, and will make sure I do the next time I play one of these. 


Still Quite Large Mistakes (Medium Oops)
- Chopping the monument was a cool idea, and would have been great much like the copper location if EG had been just a tiny bit slower. As it is, it was a wasted 30 production. Damn.
- Going for Archery would have been much better than Wheel as it turns out, never got a spear online. Was probably thinking of EG a little too much like an AI, where humans move their units much more aggressively and fast.
- Mine on the plains hill at Springer was pretty pointless, and in retrospect a farm at Gooch in the same timeframe would have saved the city. Should have thought ahead about the timeframe for an attack better.

Mistakes, But After I'd Already Lost (Small Oops)
- Third worker turned out to be no good like Miguelito suggested, similar flaw in thinking to the Archery/Wheel mistake. Would I have died anyway? Very likely. But slightly less likely than the path I took. 
- Not a mistake but I think there is a strong argument for me having lost straight after the AH decision, since that compounds with everything else in such a major way. 

Overall there are lots, probably a bunch I haven't mentioned too, but I think the overall theme is underestimating the speed of a human opponent. Pretty much every mistake can be traced back to that issue, retrospectively. So, pretty awful game by me, but at least a valuable learning experience for the next one. I'm thinking about maybe ded-lurking someone next PitBoss and just bouncing off a bunch of ideas and asking lots of questions with them to try to get a better handle on MP. If anyone will have me, that is.

Edit: I forgot while I'm gloomy, but I should also say, huge well-played to El Grillo. He totally outplayed me at every turn, and he definitely deserves the victory. I'd be lying if I said i wasn't slightly rooting against him now though.

[TBW]

If you ask me, Bronze Working should always be one of the first 2 techs you grab. Always pick a civ with at least one of a food tech that you can immediately take advantage of or Mining, and make your first two techs either the food tech (if you start with Mining and don't have the tech for whatever food's at your capital), Mining, or go for Bronze Working right away if you start with both, then The Wheel after. There are players better than me who probably have different insights on it, but that's the way I always try to start out.