September 15th, 2012, 20:44
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Because espionage and culture aren't really economy. It's a more accurate measure of a civ's productivity to leave them out. You can't spend culture or convert it to anything else. EP can convert to tech via stealing, but the graph can't know when spies or stealing are banned by player agreement, and the leading civs don't have any targets to steal.
In pre-expansion Civ 4, GNP was calculated as commerce minus expenses, ignoring multiplier buildings and specialists. I made a detailed writeup that led to changing the behavior starting from one of the Warlords patches. Someone decided that since the GNP graph always represented commerce, the fix should be to include all forms of commerce and their multipliers, not really considering that EP and culture don't represent commerce going to economy.
September 15th, 2012, 20:44
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And I'm saying they are economy, especially for those two civilizations.
September 15th, 2012, 22:07
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NobleHelium Wrote:And I'm saying they are economy, especially for those two civilizations.
In a non-comparable way, sure. I don't know how much a point of culture is worth for the Believers, it really depends on how big their empire is and the current threshold for a GA and so on. I don't really know how much an espionage point is worth, either; sometimes they turn out to be worth nothing, sometimes worth a whole bundle of beakers.
But a beaker is always a beaker. The most you can say about it is that it might be researching a useless tech. I know what it means when I have 50 more bpt than the Believers, in a way I don't have a clue what it means when they have 50 more culture/turn than me. Particularly for the Believers, where their culture only means anything for the economy once it turns into those beakers and hammers anyway.
I contend that adding culture to beakers is about as useful as adding hammers to beakers. Or adding up your CPU clock speed and your hard drive capacity. They're all good things that you want, but mixing them together into one number obscures more than it enlightens.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
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September 15th, 2012, 22:24
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Demographics are supposed to be a measurement of how well each player is doing in the game. I guess when I turn off tech and run the culture slider, my GNP should tank even though I'm about to win the game.
September 15th, 2012, 22:43
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NobleHelium Wrote:Demographics are supposed to be a measurement of how well each player is doing in the game. Really? I thought demographics were supposed to be a measurement of exactly what they said they were measuring. None of them are labeled 'winningness'.
Quote: I guess when I turn off tech and run the culture slider, my GNP should tank even though I'm about to win the game.
Yes. Just like when you build a million Modern armors, your GNP should tank then too, even if it's really worth paying the maintenance and going to win you the game. GNP =/= everything.
If you really want a complete measure of how a civ is doing in one number - fix the score formula to reflect that. If you can.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
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September 15th, 2012, 23:38
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You can always look at the seperate culture and espionage info graphs to get an idea how other civs are faring in those areas.
September 16th, 2012, 04:12
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As Mentioned in PBEM2 ... could you set it up so planting (sea) Fungus and Hybrid forests don't destroy improvements that can be placed on top of them in the first place, to help out Hybrid players slightly?
September 16th, 2012, 11:03
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Sian Wrote:As Mentioned in PBEM2 ... could you set it up so planting (sea) Fungus and Hybrid forests don't destroy improvements that can be placed on top of them in the first place, to help out Hybrid players slightly?
That sounds like an idea that could be made workable, but is rather overpowered in that form. Hybrid forests currently give +1 energy(br), hammers, planet rating and health from their tile. Allowing that to stack with all improvements just means hybrid would eventually become by far the strongest late game economy.
September 16th, 2012, 12:16
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only improvements allready able to be placed on top of Fungus, without demolishing it ... Algae, Marine and Field Lab to my knowlegde.
September 16th, 2012, 13:21
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Mardoc Wrote:Really? I thought demographics were supposed to be a measurement of exactly what they said they were measuring. None of them are labeled 'winningness'.
Yes. Just like when you build a million Modern armors, your GNP should tank then too, even if it's really worth paying the maintenance and going to win you the game. GNP =/= everything.
If you really want a complete measure of how a civ is doing in one number - fix the score formula to reflect that. If you can.
When I build a million modern armors, my "winningness" is reflected in my soldier stat. I said the demographics screen overall is a measure of winningness, not GNP. I would have no problem with the change if you were adding two additional stats to the demographics screen for culture and espionage while extracting them out of GNP, but you're not doing that.
But whatever, we clearly have different ideas about the purpose of the demographics screen.
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