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If you don't mind my opinion, I really don't think turn order should penalize you in the pick order. If anything in this game the second pick is considerably more important than normal, given that your starting techs affect your starting terrain. Turn order can easily be a handicap for the disparity of skill level among the players, as stated.
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I'm not committed to either snake or reverse order picking, personally. However, I'm anxious to get this game started so let's just go with Seven's reverse order and get started on picks!
EDIT: Cross post with Noble. Noble makes a good point that captures what was itching in the back of my mind. It sucks to be forced to make a pick that affects your capital adversely just because someone else picked it already. What about duplicate leaders but not Civs?
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pindicator Wrote:Just to clarify, does this mean you get neither rice nor pigs? My first read through had me thinking "Wow, you get to choose which one gets eliminated?" But that doesn't seem appropriate considering the bonus.
Yep, that's without both rice and pigs.
Honest opinion? Snake pick seems best to me here. Mardoc's list seems like a fine order.
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Ok I'm swayed a bit back towards snake. Plus since it's AW, turn order is less significant because you aren't getting screwed on foreign trade routes.
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Another question - Spiritual gets Islamic Temple. Is there any part of the temple's bonus that doesn't come through when you don't have the religion? Or is it +1  and a priest specialist even without being first to Divine Right?
As for pick, I'll defer to the mapmaker and say snake
Suffer Game Sicko
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Turn order is actually extra important because of counterespionage.
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SevenSpirits Wrote:Turn order is actually extra important because of counterespionage.
I'd rather find a way to close this loophole than let it affect the entire picking order. Either disallow all Counterespionage missions or find some way to close the window for players earlier in the turn order or create a window for everyone.
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pindicator Wrote:Another question - Spiritual gets Islamic Temple. Is there any part of the temple's bonus that doesn't come through when you don't have the religion? Or is it +1 and a priest specialist even without being first to Divine Right?
As for pick, I'll defer to the mapmaker and say snake
It's a priest slot and +1
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I just realized I played all of PBEM32 never realizing it was legal for me to build spies.
Can you summarize the counterespionage issue? I have no idea what it is - I pretty much never play with spies.
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You can run a mission called counterespionage which makes the city owner's espionage missions against you doubly expensive for the next 10 turns. To some extent, espionage mission prices are balanced with the ability to double their costs in mind.
Counterespionage expires at the beginning of a game turn, and can't be run if you still have it active. So not only do players later in the turn order get only 9 turns out of running it instead of 10, but there is no way for them to keep it constantly active: there is always at least going to be a 1t gap every 10th turn, and their enemies can just run their missions in the gap. We've banned the most powerful missions, tech stealing and civic/religion swapping, so this isn't the end of the world, but it's a distinct disadvantage piled on top of the already large advantage of being half a turn ahead.
I would not complain if we decided to ban spy missions. I do think the limited map revealing capabilities of spies would have a positive effect given the map - easy spotting of attacks are the usual reason cited for banning spy units and this map shouldn't need anything of the sort. Even with perfect intelligence, troop allocation will be hard. So I would definitely like to keep spies legal, but don't care much about the missions.
Regarding a snake pick, one of the reasons I avoided it in 32 was I think the wheel is a bit overpowered and in general the players who get to pick their civ/leader closer together get an advantage due to the unusual nature of the setup. So if we really want to do a snake pick I would suggest doing it in turn order so last in turn order at least gets the wheel. Just going last to first twice is still my preferred choice though. I think it worked great in 32.
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