The Dark arts - C&D Master Thread

[kjn]

Just a note that I haven't forgotten the T102 C&D, but I need to work out the kinks of the earlier score assignments. I found the T100 error for CivPlayers, but that means there is an earlier error for Apolyton

[kjn]

Important note from checking the GNP values: one of our neighbours has researched Construction. Possible candidates based on the score changes are the Spanish (+19 score, 11t since last tech), CivPlayers (+14 score, probably 3t since last tech), and Univers (+14 score, 6t since last tech).

[kjn]

Quick C&D question that is of importance to my work: will barb cities whip themselves?

[Bigger]

Quick C&D question that is of importance to my work: will barb cities whip themselves?

I don't think barbs can adopt civics??? I really doubt they could get into slavery. Not 100% though.

[NobleHelium]

Check for bridges as a sign of whether a civ has Construction...

[kjn]

Re-assessing T100 and T101

T100 - 375 BC

Cliff's Notes: This is one fugly turn, and I can't make it work out right. Either I get too much pop (by giving the Spanish 3 pop), or the Spanish don't get enough score (with a tech), since there aren't enough land tiles to go by. It might be a case of a bugged land scoring (like we had earlier), or a sudden loss of barb population.

Demos and cities:

Score table

Team	Score change	Pop	Tech	Land
RB	7			7 (+10 tiles; 110 land)
WPC	6		6 (Masonry)
Spanish	7	7 (+3 pop; 25 total)???	6 (ancient)???	???
Apolyton	19	5 (+2 pop; 45 total)	12 (classical)	2 (+2 tiles; 92 total)
CivFr	10	7 (+3 pop; 44 total)		3 (+4 tiles; 94 total)
CivPlayers	6	2 (+1 pop; 28 total)		4 (+6 tiles; 94 total)
CFC	8	7 (+3 pop; 44 total)		1 (+1 tile; 87 total)
Univers	3	3 (+1 pop; 40 total)

Score analysis

F8 analysis gives a global pop increase of 12, but that includes CFC's newest city, which probably is a captured barb city, so max 11 pop scored as the turn rolled. There are also 13 land tiles to assign from T80. GNP analysis gives no new techs with known tech bonuses. Claimed land increased with 24 tiles.

CFC: From map info they grew Indira to size 11, Lana to 8, and Raj to 4, for 44 total pop and 7 score. Then they probably captured a size 2 barb city, now named Bono, for 45 total pop and an additonal 3 score. The land tile from T80 is probably the tile surrounded by their culture we noted earlier.

WPC: I had them noted down for a totem pole on T71 which should expand borders on T80, but it appears to have been built in their capital. They were rival worst in land on T76-82. They would also get 5 score from +2 pop, leaving an ancient tech in 4t. Since they've told us they planned for Construction, I note down Masonry as confirmed for them. I note down Animal Husbandry on T49 for now, but that means they must have lost a warrior that turn too.

CivFr: Rival best in population increased with 339000, fitting with cities growing to 13, 6, and 3, and since the top city now is size 13, that's a good fit (technically, it's also possible with five cities growing, but that requires three size 1 cities growing to 2, and CivFr only has two such cities). That leaves 3 score, which must come from land.

That leaves 5 pop and 7 land tiles to assign, leaving circa 18 points for tech.

CivPlayers: Must have grown 1 pop to 28 this turn, or the T101 2-pop whip doesn't work out. This means they claimed 4 score via land, which comes to +6 tiles (94 total), now tied for rival best with Apolyton. This probably means they continue to be the rival worst in power, at 76000. This also means they probably built a spear or chariot last turn.

Apolyton: A classical tech in 2t and a pop increase to 45. The 45 pop is needed because otherwise the score changes due to whips don't work out T101 and T102.

Spanish: The strange case for the turn. Gets an ancient tech in 9t or grows 3 pop (to 25). They can't get land score, since there is no remaining to assign (unless they get bugged land points, like we did a long time back), or the world barb population has shrunk for some reason, and the CFC axes are not enough to explain it.

Univers: A pop increase, to 40.

Power analysis

Global total power increased with 25000. CFC increased their power with 10000, and the Germans with 6000, leaving 9000.

Pop accounted for 2000 to CivFr and CFC, and 1000 each to Apolyton, CivPlayers, and Univers. I note down two chariots for CFC, and an axe to the Germans. That leaves 3000 or 4000 to unknown causes, depending on what caused the Spanish scoring.

Other

We have a trade connection to CivFr somehow. Not sure how that goes - must be via a river somewhere, but no idea which team it passes through.

T101 - 350 BC

Cliff's Notes: All pop increases, but 6 land points to CFC for Lakshmi. Quiet turn.

Demos:

Score table:

Team	Score change	Pop	Land
RB	2	2 (+1 pop; 55 total)
Apolyton	5	5 (+2 pop; 47 total)
Germans	7	7 (+3 pop; 29 total)
CivFr	3	3 (+1 pop; 45 total)
CivPlayers	2	2 (+1 pop; 28 total)
CFC	8	2 (+1 pop; 46 total)	6 (Lakshmi +9 tiles; 96 total)
Univers	5	5 (+2 pop; 43 total)

Score analysis

F8 analysis gives 11 new pop, including WPC's newest city (see the dotmapping thread and below). The only claimed land from T81 was by CFC, Lakshmi (9 tiles). Rival best in pop increased with 5000, and rival worst with 54000, and there were no techs, making this a quiet and easy turn.

CFC: Lakshmi grew to size 5, and since it was settled T81 Apolyton received 6 land points for the city. CFC has 46 total pop.

CivFr: Per the rival best, CivFr grew a city to size 2, and has 45 total pop.

Germans: Wismar grew to size 5, and they grew 2 more pop for 29 total. They are no longer rival worst in population.

Apolyton: Grew 2 pop, for 47 total, so they can whip properly later on.

CivPlayers: Grew 1 pop, for 28 total, so they can whip properly later on.

Univers: Grew 2 pop, for 43 total.

I will try to work out which of WPC or the Spanish are the new rival worst in population later on.

Power analysis

Rival global power increased with 26000, of which 5000 came from pop (1000 each to Apolyton, the Germans, CivPlayers, CFC, Univers). APTmod data tells us WPC increased their power with 4000, a spearman (they don't have horses connected yet). That leaves 17000 from unknown units and buildings.

Other

The Germans has connected a fur resource, but their newest city (Wesselburen) is still not connected to the trade network, six turns after it was founded.

WPC's new city

From culture reading, I think the three tiles north of the city were already claimed by the culture from WellPlacedCity, leaving 6 tiles. That fits with the increase to the rival worst in land area, from 89 to 95 tiles. The city is named Field of Color, and did not have a road connection to the rest of WPC's empire as it was founded.

Using the worker trick, I can't see any signs of worker actions on the tiles outside the city.

Apolyton's whips

Apolyton performed 2 4-pop whips before ending their turn. Population analysis tells us it was one 9-to-5 whip (insert Dolly Parton joke) and one 8-to-4 whip. It might be wonder whips, or it might be forges or courthouses, maybe markets. But it does seem excessive.

[NobleHelium]

So we don't know who has Construction then?

[kjn]

Not yet. Do the C&D yourself if you want to work out whom.

[kjn]

Still working through the C&D for the turn (try handling 92 score, circa 19 pop, and 30 unknown land tiles over 7 teams yourself...), but I'm now 95% certain that CivPlayers researched Construction this turn.

Either that, or they grew five of their cities (all their cities but Tlaxcala and one more) this turn...

ETA: Spoke too soon, and without thinking things through. CivPlayers has researched HBR, Monarchy, and CoL (all confirmed via religion, GNP, or F4). Thus they probably grew pop, and as another option researched a classical tech in 4t, with IW and Mathematics as the probable options in that order.

[kjn]

T102 - 325 BC

Sorry for being late with this report, but I've been busy with visiting relatives, having to work out the errors in the earlier C&D, and coming down with a nasty cold (if not outright flu).

Anyway, a request for anyone being the first to log in to the game: take screen shots of the F8 and the demos screens as soon as possible. That makes it much easier for me to get the limits I have to work in. But on with the report.

Cliff's Notes: The Spanish probably researched Construction. CivFr researched a classical tech in 3t, and with plenty of soldier points, I tentatively assign Iron Working to them. Most other teams grew pop, with the Spanish and Univers getting large amounts of land score.

Demos:

Score table

Team	Score change	Pop	Tech	Land	Wonders
RB	10	10 (+4 pop; 59 total)
Spanish	19		12 (Construction)	7 (+10 tiles; 80 total)
Apolyton	5	5 (+2 pop; 41 total)
Germans	7	7 (+3 pop; 32 total)
CivFr	14	2 (+1 pop; 46 total)	12 (classical)
CivPlayers	14	12 (+5 pop; 31 total)		2 (Calix... 3 tiles; 97 total)
CFC	7	7 (+3 pop; 49 total)
Univers	24	10 (+4 pop; 47 total)		14 (+20 tiles; 97 total)

Score analysis

F8 based on our post-whip demos and after Apolyton whipped away 8 pop and CFC whipped away 3 pop gives a global pop increase of 8, though I'm not sure if this is having trouble keeping track of what happens. I know I do. There are 30 land tiles to score from T82, and 3 known that belong to CivPlayers. And GNP analysis tells us one of our neighbours has researched Construction.

Thus we have a total score change of 92, 19 pop growths worth circa 48 points, and 33 land tiles worth circa 23 points, leaving circa 20 to other causes.

CFC: From map info they grew Mantra to size 6 and Daivagati to 4, for 48 pop. That leaves 2 points, and they had 96 land tiles on T81 (rival best), and the new rival best is only 97 tiles. Thus I think they grew the city of Lana to size 2, which matches well with a city founded 6 turns ago with a readily improvable grass cow.

CivFr: Rival best in population rose with 42000, fitting with either 1 (to size 5) or 2 (to size 4 and 3) pop growths. Growth to 46 pop would give 2 score, and to 47 would give 5. However, 2 pop growths would require an ancient tech and at least 3 land score, pushing them over the 98 land tiles, more than the rival best. Thus, they grew a single city to size 5 and researched a classical tech in 3t.

Germans: Worms grew to size 5. Rival best in power rose with 2000, and according to APTmod it is still the Germans, so they get a further two pop growths, to 32 total.

Apolyton: For their two 4-pop whips (see later) to give a 10 and then a 9 score drop, they must start this turn with either 41 or 39 pop, for 2 or 0 pop growths. Since 5 score from land would require them holding more than 96 land tiles, they grew to 41 pop.

Those were the easy ones.

CivPlayers: Received 3 land tiles from Calixtlahuaca on T82, which made them rival best in land at 97 tiles at the time. This is worth 2 score, leaving 12. One option is that they researched Mathematics in 4t, another is that they grew 5 pop (all of their cities but Tlaxcala and one more) this turn, for 12 score. The increase of rival worst in power with 2000 fits with the pop, provided that CivPlayers still are the rival worst in power.

Spanish: The Spanish were likely the rival worst on T90 with 80 land tiles, and they held 70 on T81. 10 land tiles now would give them 7 score, leaving a classical tech in 11t. Since this is their second classical tech, I judge the Spanish team to be the one most likely to have researched Construction.

Univers: Gets the leftovers. 20 land tiles puts them as co-leaders in rival best with 97 tiles, and 4 pop growths rounds out their score. That also leaves us with 8 barb city points, which would fit with CFC taking a barb city, since we had 9 barb pop points earlier (we missed the growth of that barb city).

Power analysis

Rival best and worst in soldiers each rose with 2000, and the rival total with 44000. Pop accounted for 1000 to Apolyton, 2000 to the Germans (rival best), 1000 to CivFr, 2000 to CivPlayers (probably still rival worst), 1000 to CFC, and 2000 to Univers, leaving 35000 to other causes.

APTmod shows no change to WPC, 2000 to the Germans from pop, and 10000 to CFC, likely a chariot/spear and an axe. The APTmod data is after CFC whipped away their 1000 power from pop they gained as the turn rolled.

That leaves 25000, and Construction is worth 4000, leaving 21000 to unknown causes. With the quick research for CivFr, I note them down for Iron Working for now.

The whips of Apolyton and CFC

Apolyton performed 2 4-pop whips, lowering their score with 19, and CFC performed a 3-pop whip. Between them they lowered the world population with 1,009,000.

CFC whipped the city of Mantra from size 6 (size 5 on T101, size 3 when I looked at the map) to size 3. That means Apolyton whipped one size 8 city to 4 and one size 11 city to 7. Together with their whips last turn they have whipped away 16 pop while only growing 4 in the last two turns, making it very likely that they researched Metal Casting on T100, though the T100 power numbers don't really back this up, but it might be masked by losses to barbs. It's either forges or markets with the help of some chops.