Intersite Game - Turn Discussion Thread

[luddite]

What are the exact tech costs of Mathematics, Currency, Monarchy, Feudalism, and Metal Casting? Before discounts.

The base beaker cost of the techs we can presumably Oracle is the following:

Math - 250 beakers
Currency - 400 beakers
Monarchy, Alphabet, Aesthetics - 300 beakers
Feudalism - 700 beakers
Metal Casting - 450 beakers
Code of Laws, Calendar, Construction - 350 beakers
Theology - 500 beakers

roughly double that for all of them, with these map settings.

[Ichabod]

Would Feudalism really be a possible tech to Oracle? It doesn't give us any significant economic bonus (the one I can think of is giving a prereq tech to Civil Service that we most likely wouldn't get before actually teching Civil Service - of course, the huge beaker cost is actually pretty good). But getting Feudalism would make every team think 10 times before attacking us for a long time. It's hard to quantify this advantage, but it's a pretty significant one.

[NobleHelium]

Well it looks like it would take about the same time to research Mono-Monarchy as Writing-Math. So to me it looks like our choices are:

1) Feudalism - most expensive tech with some utility. Takes about as long to unlock as Currency, except it lets us get HR/OR as well.
2) Currency - about the same tech time as Feudalism, except we delay HR/OR (would have to tech Math right after Priesthood). Probably the best combination of utility + beakers saved. Gaspar's instinct would be all over this I'm sure.
3) Metal Casting - no teching required, a bit more utility than Feudalism but not as many beakers.
4) Monarchy - fewest beakers saved, but is the only one that speeds up the path that we were planning to trod anyway.

[NobleHelium]

Thinking about it again I don't think Oracling Monarchy would be useful at all. I don't think we have been making accurate estimates of just how soon we can actually build the Oracle.

We finish Stonehenge around the time that we can finish Priesthood. Keep in mind that it takes ten turns for FP to expand its borders, so I don't think we can finish chopping out Oracle sooner than that. 10t after Priesthood means we're about half done with Math (if we go for it straight after Priesthood), or close to done with Monarchy.

Edit: Well, if we get a Hindu spread to FP (which is actually quite likely given how big the map is), the border pop would be much faster.

Double edit: Well I forgot that we need Masonry for Mono. I think the time to tech Monarchy is probably about the same time to tech Mathematics then.

[WilliamLP]

As a lurker comment: it surprises me that you aren't looking at scouting your surroundings with a little more urgency. So isn't the true opportunity cost of Oracle not a worker and a settler, but a few bronze units and thus more knowledge of your surroundings (horses are kind of a big deal) and maybe more diplo contacts?

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

As a lurker comment: it surprises me that you aren't looking at scouting your surroundings with a little more urgency. So isn't the true opportunity cost of Oracle not a worker and a settler, but a few bronze units and thus more knowledge of your surroundings (horses are kind of a big deal) and maybe more diplo contacts?

Big hammer difference in a few scouting units vs. worker/settler vs. Oracle. If nothing else, a couple metal units to scout would just set us back from one of the other a handful of turns. /shrug

Ninja edit: Also, our current micro plan calls for a double-whipped spear for the 'Henge, so we aren't totally bereft. Not as good as an early axe for exploring, but it's something to shove in the face of a wandering barb.

[NobleHelium]

I'm pretty sure we'll finish the current axe in FP before we start Oracle if we do build it.

[SevenSpirits]

Let's consider some actual numbers here.

1) Tech PH + Writing + Math, for 600 base beakers. Finish off Oracle and grab Currency, netting a strong tech worth 600 base beakers.

2) Tech PH (+ Writing), for 90 (225) base beakers. Finish off Oracle and grab Metal Casting (675 base beakers) or Code of Laws (525 base beakers, or 450 base beakers if we'd get currency before it). But neither tech is immediately very strong.

3) Tech PH and Oracle Monarchy, worth 386 base beakers assuming we'd have both prereqs.


Case 3 looks pretty solidly not worth it. We are only getting 2.5 beakers per hammer there, and remember there is always risk of wasted effort when building wonders. (Not only might we end up with a terrible 1:1 conversion of some hammers to gold, but we have to plan our entire workforce around the build.)

Case 2 I do not believe to be worth it. While we would get a large number of beakers, those beakers would be mostly useless to us for a long time. (Those techs wouldn't provide much immediate benefit.) I think our spoils would languish in disuse long enough to cut their value by a third or a half, meaning Metal Casting would only be about as good a choice as Monarchy.

Case 1 intrigues me. Math and Currency are obviously both great techs, and since we've already landed hinduism there is less need to rush for judaism. Also, building it later on, with math chops, means there is less downside if we don't win the race. Questions here are, how soon can we produce the 600b to reach math (after finishing fishing), and how soon are we afraid of compitition for the oracle? Buddhism hasn't fallen yet, right? Looking at our current tech rate it would take about 20 turns.

[WilliamLP]

Big hammer difference in a few scouting units vs. worker/settler vs. Oracle. If nothing else, a couple metal units to scout would just set us back from one of the other a handful of turns. /shrug

Ninja edit: Also, our current micro plan calls for a double-whipped spear for the 'Henge, so we aren't totally bereft. Not as good as an early axe for exploring, but it's something to shove in the face of a wandering barb.

As a disclaimer I'm not nearly as good a Civ player as you guys. Still, imagine the exact situation you would have had when Oracle comes online, only now in addition to the copper units you are building already, you have another 4 axes (140 hammers) fanning out in all directions to scout and fog-bust. You can't deny the second situation has some advantages worth considering, e.g. you will probably find horses and additional contacts much earlier, and have your longer term decisions influenced by better map awareness than the other teams.

[Merovech]

Big hammer difference in a few scouting units vs. worker/settler vs. Oracle. If nothing else, a couple metal units to scout would just set us back from one of the other a handful of turns. /shrug

Ninja edit: Also, our current micro plan calls for a double-whipped spear for the 'Henge, so we aren't totally bereft. Not as good as an early axe for exploring, but it's something to shove in the face of a wandering barb.

As a disclaimer I'm not nearly as good a Civ player as you guys. Still, imagine the exact situation you would have had when Oracle comes online, only now in addition to the copper units you are building already, you have another 4 axes (140 hammers) fanning out in all directions to scout and fog-bust. You can't deny the second situation has some advantages worth considering, e.g. you will probably find horses and additional contacts much earlier, and have your longer term decisions influenced by better map awareness than the other teams.

I actually fell your idea has some merit, especially in a full diplo game. Instinct tells me it's probably not worth it, but they're definitely situations were I could see the knowledge, not to mention the military, valuable.