January 4th, 2011, 00:31
(This post was last modified: April 20th, 2011, 19:38 by T-hawk.)
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First post - it's RB P4. No stinking second B needed 
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Sorry mate but you're playing the wrong game. I'm pretty sure I can know exactly what the title will be.
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When you get a chance, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the selections--both what was chosen and what wasn't.
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Well now that Lord Parkin has thrown down the gauntlet with 11 posts before I even notice that this subforum is up, I will have to respond.
Clearly, as a newcomer to RB, he doesn't know who the thread post / spam king is 
I will post a few of the IMs sunrise and I shared. He'll have to post any that he had with some of the other folks (sooooo, darrell, etc).
But basically both choices boiled down to
1) Me expressing an opinion, while indicating I could be swayed in a different decision
2) sunrise picking something else
Sound about right?
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Krill Wrote:Sorry mate but you're playing the wrong game. I'm pretty sure I can know exactly what the title will be.
I guess I'm missing the joke, but I don't really appreciate threads I make on this board having their titles changed to something I explicitly criticized.
Consistency in the 2nd and 3rd pitboss thread titled makes the scheme pretty clear, as does logic (the word is "Pitboss" not "Pit Boss." That said, I had no interest in asking someone with mod powers to change the other thread titles. I wish I had received the same courtesy.
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Okay - so after we decided to play. Errr well sunrise decided to play, with me helping out if/as necessary, here was the very first IM conversation we had
Quote:(8:33:58 PM) sunrise089: hi regoarrarr
(8:34:11 PM) regoarrarr: 1st pick for a leader / civ....GO
(8:34:18 PM) sunrise089: we're not first
(8:34:18 PM) regoarrarr: off the top of your head
(8:34:20 PM) regoarrarr: i know
(8:34:21 PM) sunrise089: I think we ARE earlier
(8:34:23 PM) regoarrarr: but who do hyou want
(8:34:24 PM) regoarrarr: we're 6th
(8:34:28 PM) sunrise089: bismark
(8:34:31 PM) regoarrarr: dutch went fist
(8:34:31 PM) sunrise089: but we just took him
(8:34:40 PM) sunrise089: shaka is good too, and issabella
(8:34:46 PM) sunrise089: and wang kon
(8:34:48 PM) regoarrarr: yes isabella was my first pick
(8:35:00 PM) sunrise089: shaka of zulu is available
So as we can see, sunrise had an idea right from the start, and just humored the rest of us by letting us feel that we were part of the discussion
In any case, we decided early on to pick leader first. It was decided that with the banned civs, there was no "uber" civ, and many could work.
Our first pick was Isabella (Spi / Exp) who went I think the turn before us (grrr), but after early discussions, it came down to Louis (Cre / Ind) or Shaka (Agg / Exp)
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After it got to be our pick, here were some of the conversations that we had
Quote:(3:32:02 PM) sunrise089: ok, my three choices are shaka, washington, and louis
(3:32:26 PM) regoarrarr: i vote louis
(3:32:29 PM) regoarrarr: he's my #1 pick i think
(3:32:34 PM) regoarrarr: i could get talked into shaka
(3:32:55 PM) sunrise089: thing with shaka or washington is that they're civ dependent
(3:33:01 PM) regoarrarr: how so?
(3:33:11 PM) sunrise089: shaka wants melee or gunpowder uu
(3:33:15 PM) regoarrarr: ah
(3:33:18 PM) regoarrarr: and horse for wash?
(3:33:20 PM) sunrise089: since I dont plan to rush, shaka of gunpowder UU is pretty good
(3:33:30 PM) sunrise089: because 2 promos on drafred units
(3:33:31 PM) regoarrarr: shaka of france
(3:33:39 PM) sunrise089: france, england, or ethiopia
(3:33:51 PM) sunrise089: right, which Chm probably want horses
(3:33:59 PM) sunrise089: wash of mongolia is the really good synergy
(3:34:18 PM) sunrise089: chm is of course a bit better during peaceful times
(3:35:35 PM) regoarrarr: france is a civ that has the good starting techs
(3:35:45 PM) regoarrarr: wheel and ag/min
(3:36:08 PM) regoarrarr: france, sumeria, babylon, egypt
(3:36:35 PM) regoarrarr: china is min/ag which is also nice
(3:37:10 PM) sunrise089: persia and zulu are also pretty good civ choices I was thinking
(3:37:14 PM) sunrise089: 2move defenders early
(3:37:32 PM) sunrise089: I could be spain again
(3:37:44 PM) sunrise089: with Ind...I'm not sure of the value
(3:37:49 PM) sunrise089: I wish Kublai was available
(3:37:57 PM) sunrise089: Ind is nice for forges, for sure
(3:38:07 PM) sunrise089: but that's mid-game with no tech trading
(3:38:17 PM) sunrise089: I guess wonders are better ntt?
(3:38:24 PM) regoarrarr: you'd think?
(3:38:25 PM) sunrise089: also, I really expect Bismark will get picked for sure
(3:38:33 PM) regoarrarr: yeah that's true
(3:38:36 PM) regoarrarr: which does limit the benefit of ind
(3:38:41 PM) regoarrarr: having 2+
(3:38:51 PM) sunrise089: I mean we know what soooo said - forges are the benefit, wondes are icing
I initially wanted Louis, and sunrise was for Shaka. The conversation meandered a bit, and then we started wrapping things up
Quote:(3:46:42 PM) sunrise089: ok, so shaka versus louis
(3:47:10 PM) sunrise089: if we assume the first buildings will be monument -> granary -> (forge when available) -> barracks/library
(3:47:34 PM) regoarrarr: ok
(3:48:53 PM) sunrise089: louis is 0 base hammers + 60 + (.5*120) + 50 + (.5*90)
(3:49:14 PM) regoarrarr: 215
(3:49:37 PM) regoarrarr: shaka is 30 + .5*60+120+.5*50?
(3:49:50 PM) sunrise089: +90
(3:49:52 PM) sunrise089: for library
(3:49:59 PM) regoarrarr: 295
(3:50:10 PM) sunrise089: so shaka is worse post-forges
(3:50:10 PM) regoarrarr: though you will get more base hammers
(3:50:17 PM) regoarrarr: with faster worekrs / granary / bigger citeis
(3:50:19 PM) sunrise089: pre-forges....
(3:50:36 PM) sunrise089: shaka is 175
(3:50:53 PM) sunrise089: louis 145
(3:51:15 PM) regoarrarr: it's the culture
(3:51:17 PM) regoarrarr: that is huge
(3:51:46 PM) regoarrarr: i'd say we're likely to be one of only 2 creative civs
(3:51:51 PM) regoarrarr: unless someone takes cre/pro gilga
(3:52:03 PM) sunrise089: right, so aside from hammers, which louis wins...
(3:53:02 PM) sunrise089: louis gives us +1 culture over the game (because shaka has a monument instead), faster theaters and collisiums, which are situational, and whatever hammers we make in wonder construction
(3:53:19 PM) regoarrarr: and faster forges
(3:53:23 PM) sunrise089: factored in
(3:53:25 PM) regoarrarr: got it
(3:53:26 PM) sunrise089: to the hammers
(3:54:33 PM) sunrise089: shaka gives us, aside from hammers which he looses, highly situational drydocks and fairly situational harbors, +2 health throughout the game, and every melle and gunpowder unit is stronger
(3:55:46 PM) regoarrarr: hard to quantify the extra promo
(3:55:58 PM) regoarrarr: kind of feel like if it's coming down to that on either offense or defense, we've already lost
(3:56:13 PM) sunrise089: well, not in terms of choking or drafting
(3:56:15 PM) regoarrarr: though if we ever need to build commando mechs to raze the capital of a civ whose already launched it would be nice 
(3:56:21 PM) sunrise089: with choking agg is amazing, since you can take shock or cover earlyu
(3:56:34 PM) sunrise089: and with drafting, it's 1-2 promos vs zero
(3:58:00 PM) sunrise089: soooo prefers alex to louis
(3:59:08 PM) regoarrarr: do you expect to do much choking?
(3:59:20 PM) regoarrarr: alex huh?
(3:59:28 PM) regoarrarr: anyway i'm about to leave to go grocery shopping
(3:59:37 PM) sunrise089: ok, thaks for input
(3:59:39 PM) regoarrarr: so if you want any other thoughts from me you need them in the next 3-5 mins
(3:59:51 PM) regoarrarr: i would lean towards louis but whatever you want
(4:09:02 PM) sunrise089: ok, picked shaka
(4:09:11 PM) sunrise089: uberfish and soooo both prefered shaka
(4:09:32 PM) sunrise089: i'd have liked to play louis, he's probably my favorite SP leader to play
(4:10:00 PM) sunrise089: but with water on the map I think that makes Agg a bit better, and with krill as mapmaker i'm hoping that means closer quarters
So we did a detailed analysis of initial city builds, determined that Louis won the early hammer race, in addition to having better cheap buildings later, and then picked Shaka anyways
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Regoarrarr means to say we decided to pick a LEADER first. And he's right - Issy was the top pick, with Shaka and Louis in the next tier since we excluded Bismark after playing him in RBP3. Sooooo argued for Alex via IM, but I'm playing a Phi leader in RBPBEM4 already, plus I think Phi is not only a bit weaker but also a bit map dependent. Remember, deep bulbs don't work as well without tech trading.
EDIT: Washington was also discussed, but once Egypt fell and Zulu didn't I was never won over by it.
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Shortly thereafter, it came to be our turn again, this time for Civ. All along I wanted France. We had discussed that, given our "Aggressive" pick of Shaka (the trait, not necessarily how we're going to play it), we would prefer a civ with a UU that was either melee or gunpowder.
When it came back to our turn, we had our top 3 choices of France, England and Zulu all on the table.
I expressed my opinions, while waiting for sunrise to show up from one of his patented IM "say hi, then disappear for like 2 hours before actually starting the conversation" incidents (note the timestamps)
Quote:(11:49:18 AM) sunrise089: hi regoarrarr
(11:49:22 AM) superdoubledan: fraaaaaaaaaaaaaance
(11:53:10 AM) superdoubledan: fraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance
(11:55:33 AM) superdoubledan: fraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance
(12:14:29 PM) superdoubledan: fraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance
(12:15:02 PM) sunrise089: hi regoarrarr
(12:15:08 PM) superdoubledan: oh there you are (again)
We had a few more conversations
Quote:(12:15:21 PM) sunrise089: so...
(12:15:27 PM) sunrise089: England, Zulu, or FRANCE?
(12:15:52 PM) superdoubledan: does starting with a scout make you more, less, or equally likely to go worker first
(12:17:41 PM) sunrise089: less
(12:17:54 PM) sunrise089: but we're EXP
(12:18:04 PM) sunrise089: so unless we have a plains hill we want to grow to 2
(12:18:09 PM) sunrise089: *plains forest hill
(12:18:14 PM) sunrise089: but hunting does suck
(12:18:26 PM) superdoubledan: indeed
(12:18:34 PM) sunrise089: but Ikhandas are nice
(12:18:36 PM) sunrise089: and double speed
(12:18:39 PM) superdoubledan: yeah
(12:18:47 PM) sunrise089: I think the best UB easily once you factor cost
(12:18:52 PM) sunrise089: (best UB of the group)
(12:19:07 PM) sunrise089: soooo says Muskateers > Redcoats for him
(12:19:11 PM) superdoubledan: yeah
(12:19:15 PM) superdoubledan: i agree
...
(12:24:08 PM) superdoubledan: hmm we're the only agg icv
(12:25:26 PM) sunrise089: right
(12:25:35 PM) sunrise089: making shock impis pretty good
(12:25:59 PM) sunrise089: and C2 Impis decent to defend versus knights
(12:40:03 PM) superdoubledan: fine with me
(12:40:07 PM) superdoubledan: it's your civ
(12:40:10 PM) superdoubledan: i'm just the ded lurker
Have I done a good enough job laying the groundwork for blame if we err I mean sunrise doesn't win?
It's HIS Civ. I am JUST the ded lurker. Got it? Good
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sunrise089 Wrote:Regoarrarr means to say we decided to pick a LEADER first.
Right - post edited.
I will come back later on with some thoughts on our opponents. Also I want to point out that one of the main reasons that I liked France over Zulu were their starting techs. France has the "good" combination of starting techs (2 of Ag / Wheel / Mining). Ag/Wheel are IMO the 2 best, not only because they are the most useful, but they're also the most expensive.
It may seem like a small bit, but in a "snowball" game like Civ, starting with 2 60 beaker techs (Ag / Wheel) is a big deal vs. starting with 2 40 beaker techs (Hunting / Fishing - Greece / Vikings). That's a 40 beaker difference that you have to make up, not even counting for the fact that EVERYONE (pretty much) has to research Ag and the Wheel, while many civs can delay Hunting or even Fishing, depending on situations.
We start with Hunting and Agriculture, which is okay, but also gives us a scout start, which means we're less likely to go worker first, as we discussed earlier
Quote:(12:15:52 PM) superdoubledan: does starting with a scout make you more, less, or equally likely to go worker first
(12:17:41 PM) sunrise089: less
(12:17:54 PM) sunrise089: but we're EXP
(12:18:04 PM) sunrise089: so unless we have a plains hill we want to grow to 2
(12:18:09 PM) sunrise089: *plains forest hill
(12:18:14 PM) sunrise089: but hunting does suck
(12:18:26 PM) superdoubledan: indeed
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