Horselover Fat's journal - Iskender and the Hippus

[Iskender]

So Pb knocked on the door. I'll post an update tommorow, i'm short on time today.

[Maksim]

So, is it true? Are the Hippus no more?

Perhaps you could share some thoughts on the game now?

[Square Leg]

Hey Iskender,

Just wanted to drop by and say thank you for putting all the time and effort into this game and that I hope to see you play in another game here sometime.

I would love to hear some thoughts from you on how it all went down and also if you have any comments now being able to to read the other threads.

Cheers,
SL

[Iskender]

Hi folks. Sorry for the delay: I crawled under a big rock and stayed there ashamed by how badly I was defeated. Time to come out.

Let's flash back a month. On a chat Selrahc told me that Pb has the turn and is waiting for my decision before playing on.

22:07
[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Yo

Just wondering something...
22:08
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: hey

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Couple of turns ago you mentioned super-deepening.

Ready to spill the beans on that?
22:09
Now that I've finished up with the current Big Project tm I could go for deepening as the next tech focus.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i'm considering adopting AV

summoning hyborem and rising the AC quite a bit

but that largely depends on what Pb and Bob does
22:10
if i do switch to AV we could coordinate the deepening with blight

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Ah. Got you. That would be pretty devastating.

To PB at least.
22:11
I imagine Bob would feast his cities to the ground.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yes

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Good contingency scheme to break up those super cities if we have a

need. I approve. I'll hold off on researching it for now though.

Since this seems like more of a medium term thing.
22:12
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yes. 20 turns at very least

btw did you get turn 166? seems it's stuck somewhere
22:13
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Yeah.

Sent it on too.

Where is it stuck?
22:14
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i'm not sure. possibly with Pb
22:15
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Ah. Alright. I think he mentioned something about wanting to talk to

you before playing.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: but I guess it's with cull as usual

omg

serious business

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I might be remembering it wrong. Something like that. He definitely

wanted to talk to you.
22:16
Don't know what about, but I imagine its vampire related.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yeah, i know. i've been busy today. didn't know it's that important for him
22:17
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Heh. Like I said, might be remembering it wrong.

If he is holding up the save for it I imagine it is something pretty important though.
22:19
Alright, so give me a heads up when we want to get Operation:Pneumonia underway.
22:20
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: sure

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: And have a good incredibly portentious chat with PB.
22:22
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i'm having it right now : O
22:23
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: OMG. Is it most serious?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yeah. i'm stepping on thin ice
22:24
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I'll send you an adept to frost it over.
22:25
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: thanks

btw. about that air mana. i'll send you an email tommorow

[/COLOR]Selrahc: Okay.

At roughly the same time I contacted PB trying to reschedule our conversation (it wasn't a trick or an intentional stalling, I was just busy), but we had it then and there:

[COLOR="Lime"]ja: hi Pb. I've been off line all day today (travelling back to home town). i should be

pretty busy tommorow as well. maybe we could chat on wednesday or try to work something out via emails?
22:15
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Hi iskender
22:16
Well, not really. I really need to press you for an answer re: alliance vs calabim

Can't say I havent been patient
22:19
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i would really like to stay neutral in that conflict
22:20
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I kinda guessed you'd say that.

Oh well, okay I understand

problem is, I feel like I have to try and do something about the Calabim

You haven't told him btw that I'm thinking of attacking, that I've approached you have you?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: no
22:21
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: cool

thing is, for me to try and take them on, I need to feel secure about my borders

So I'd like to sign a long term NAP, at the very minimum
22:22
Would that be okay?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: how long?
22:23
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Until the Calabim are eliminated

that's not a problem is it?
22:24
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: how about we make it an indefinite nap with a cooldown period?
22:25
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: mmmm. no thanks.

Lets run through the thought process here Iskender

You want to remain neutral, while Bob and I fight, correct?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: yes
22:26
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Okay that's fine. I understand, I've got no problem with it.

But that means, you don't intend to take part, and you certainly dont intend to attack me yup?

So therefore, a nap lasting until the Calabim are eliminated means either I win, they're gone, or they

win, I'm gone
22:27
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: that's why i'm in for the nap. but not for hundreds of turns. i've made that

mistake with the calabim
22:28
also, if you succeed in eliminating them and nap me and selrahc the game is over
22:29
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: That makes no sense that last line. I'm offering a nap until the

Calabim are eliminated. If the Calabim are eliminated the nap ends

and or can be renegotiated
22:30
I don't see the problem Iskender. Either you intend to remain neutral or not?
22:32
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: let me rephrase it: if you succeed in defeading vampires then you'll be so

strong that our nap won't matter

i'm not going to make a commitment for the rest of the game

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: nonsense. I'll have the same number of cities as now and at best a

half dead army
22:33
Its if the Calabim win that you'd have to worry, but I've already made you a offer in that direction, and

you've said you're not interested
22:34
It's not for the rest of the game, it's until the conlfict between the Kuriotates and Calabim gets

resolved

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: not at this stage. i'm stepping on thin ice here

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: a conflict you are telling me, you don't want to get involved in
22:35
I can't go to war if my neighbours won't sign NAPs and make me feel secure on my borders

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i want to stay out of it at the moment.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: for the duration of the conflict, not just a short term NAP

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i want to sign a nap

i signed a nap for 100 turns and it hurt me a lot
22:36
i'm not going to make that mistake again
22:37
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Final answer?
22:38
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i'm offering a cooldown period. not a short one. 10 turns maybe?
22:39
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: 10t.... We're not even in the same ball park here I'm afraid

I'll go as low as a NAP for 100 turns, that's my absolute lowest
22:40
including a term that if the Calabim get eliminated before then, it ends

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: that's a lot of time. i think the game will be resolved much sooner
22:41
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Not if it's just me and Bob fighting, while everyone else stays

neutral
22:42
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: it's unlikely that you'll gradually wear yourselves down. i guess one side will

win decisively

and at that point the game will be be close to resolution
22:43
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: and given that it's my four cities vs 3 civs, it's likely to be me

losing

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: you're vs 1 civ

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Bob has already vassalised Cull, so any war vs Bob is vs Cull also,

and Sareln will be close behind
22:44
My math is poor, but I count 3 civs

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i doubt they'll fight for the vamps
22:45
sareln will do scouting and that's it i guess

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Maybe, maybe not. Hopefully I'll find out. But to do so, I need a

NAP with my neighbours first, which is why we're having this conversation

Need an answer Iskender. My offer is 100t or until the Calabim are eliminated
22:46
I won't go lower

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: why not? 100 turns at this stage is a lot of time
22:48
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I don't see why this is not an automatic yes for you. If you then

follow it up by extending your NAP with Bob (almost certainly he'll agree if I'm threatening him), you can

go military light and happily tech while neutral
22:49
I really shouldn't be having to try this hard...

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i would be boxed with long naps with both neighbors
22:50
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: ...who are both fighting. That's the decision you've just told me

you've made. To stay neutral and be boxed in until one dies
22:51
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i said i don't want to get involved right now. i don't want to be a happy

builder if one of you runs away with the game

i don't want to backstab you either. that's why i'm offering a warning period
22:52
you want to be safe in your conflict with the calabim. you don't need a 100 turn nap for this

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: ...So if my war vs the Calabim goes well, my units are on the other

side of the continent, then I get a happy message from the Hippus saying "look out, we've decided to go to

war with you!"
22:53
"Oh! And we've spent the last 50t while you've been losing units, buiding up a big army!"

fuck no

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i wouldn't be able to say that if we have a warning period
22:54
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Nah I'm not keen on that Iskender. I think what I'm offering is

fair.
22:55
...but you don't seem to be interested, do you?
22:56
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i've made a counter offer. i'm sure it's reasonable
22:57
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: You won't take the NAP for 100t/ Calabim eliminated?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: 100 turns is too long
22:58
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: (whichever is shorter. So if Calabim eliminated next turn, that's

how long it lasts)
22:59
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: if they are eliminated in 10 turns it's enough to have a 10-turn warning period

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I'm not quite understanding the logic there, but I get the

impression the answer is no
23:01
K

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: the answer is a different offer
23:02
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I'm sorry my friend. I don't quite udnerstand what's happened. Two

weeks ago, we were discussing an alliance and working together vs the Calabim. Last week you cooled and

decided you didn't want to attack them. This week you seem to no longer want to attack them and also want

to keep your options about attacking me open
23:03
I can't take the risk that you intend to attack me, either soon, or if/when the Calabim are on the ropes

and suddenly manage to bribe you into the war on their side
23:04
So I'm afraid the Kurios are declaring war on the Hippus this turn

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: ok, so be it

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: If I'm wrong, and you did intend to just stay neutral throughout,

I'll get on my knees and apologise

But we won't find out until the end. Good luck
23:05
[/COLOR]ja: good luck to you too

So, I didn't accept the NAP, which cost me the game. Why did I do this? Probably because of a mixture of pride and hope. I hoped that, despite all the portents, Pb would leave me alone for a few more turns. At the same time I was too proud to be forced into yet another NAP, even if it meant losing the game. I saw accepting the NAP as anoter, drawn-out form of losing - that is letting Pb eventually get away with the game.

Let me throw in a few more comments from a yet-quite-unspoiled perspective:

The Airships: I haven't read the spoilers yet, but a lurker told me that Pb has zero intentions of using them. Well, that sucks. Means I lost the game because a non-existent threat Still, I don't think that my dread of Airships was unfounded. They are there, available for the Kuriotates, and they are almost impossible to counter. I couldn't dismiss them just like that. I only wish I had known about them earlier, ie. at the beginning of the takeover. I would've been more cautious towards Pb and less hostile versus the Calabim, which probably would've avoided me that desperate switching sides.


Some other mistakes I've made along the way:

- building a road straight into Kuriotate teritorry. I expected Pb to pick Raiders, but still I made that road. There's only one explanation:
- not checking if Pb has Engineering yet. I've been tracking techs every turn as soon as I learned how to do it, yet forgot to do it when it was critical. If I'd checked it I could've promoted archers in the capital and moved a few horsemen as dummy defenders, which would've slowed down the invasion by a couple of turns.

There are things I think I've handled well - I built a strong economy and had a good idea how to convert it into an effective war machine.

Despite the embarassing epilogue this PBEM has been a great fun. I'm glad I took over and don't regret any minute of poring over the map of Erebus. In fact, I'm looking forward to repeating it (PBEM5? )

Thanks for lurking and for your comments, I hope you enjoyed it. Now please excuse me, I'm going to get spoiled

[Sciz]

Look forward to seeing you play another game here! One that you can start yourself

I have to say i was cheering for you this game, too bad it didn't work out. Still think you did a great job recovering the Hippus position

[Mardoc]

Honestly, I didn't think your loss was as embarrassing as you feel it to be. You had incomplete information; us lurkers have had trouble keeping track of PB's plans, and he's supposedly sharing them with us

And, more, I felt your action to be in the spirit of these poems:

“He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That puts it not unto the touch
To win or lose it all”

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;

Now, admittedly, you lost the bet. But it was a grand one to make!

[Darkmantle]

It may have had an ignominious end but your empire was a great achievement and lots of fun for the lurkers so you should feel very proud of your accomplishments. Probably want to avoid majorly antagonising the world military superpower with a super fast mobile army just on your doorstep next time though

You should read Bob and Selrahc's threads first. Once you start on PB's thread you aren't going to be able to stop so leave a good chunk of time free.

[sunrise089]

I agree with you on your strengths. I'd frame the airship issue like this: are airships X turns in the future any more OP than raider centaur archers that exist right now and are owned by a person giving me an ultimatum?

Question since you're still unspoiled: when you say agreeing to a NAP would have been giving away the game, how much value are you putting in PB's promise to let you have the spoils if he successfully wars versus the Calabim? Did you suspect he wasn't being honest, or did you think the chances of actually winning that war were too slim?

[Ilios]

Welcome back Iskender! It's a pity you have been eradicated from the face of Erebus, as I enjoyed reading your thread...

[Iskender]

I agree with you on your strengths. I'd frame the airship issue like this: are airships X turns in the future any more OP than raider centaur archers that exist right now and are owned by a person giving me an ultimatum?

And you'd be right, they aren't. My ultimate and only objective throughout the game was to conquest all Erebus and that presupposes staying alive until I'm able to do so. Accepting Pb's offer would be perfectly reasonable, but my pride stepped in. Mixed with a little bit of frustration as well. I didn't want to be forced into yet another deal even if, as Bob put it, I didn't have enough military to back my arguments. Also, maybe if I had played from the very beginning I would've been more attached to the Green Horselords (not that I wasn't ) and I would've agreed for the NAP.

Question since you're still unspoiled: when you say agreeing to a NAP would have been giving away the game, how much value are you putting in PB's promise to let you have the spoils if he successfully wars versus the Calabim? Did you suspect he wasn't being honest, or did you think the chances of actually winning that war were too slim?

I'm sure Pb was honest in letting me have the spoils. His offer was a fantastic one economy-wise, but I saw it as a sign that Pb is so confident about winning that he doesn't mind me doubling my land and pop. I was pretty sure that if Pb attacked Calabim he'd win easily, mostly due to Bob's reckless road spamming.

Thanks for your comments, I feel less embarassed already