Some Elitist Rules Clarifications Needed

[Attika]

Any Diablo/Hellfire Elitists feel strongly on any of these subjects?

#1. Can SP Unique items be used as birthday gifts and imported into a SP game (via an item importer) in a SP game where they do not show? For example, could you ask for an Undead Crown as your birthday gift when you turn clevel 10, even if you did not get the Leo Quest? Admitted, this items have no listed qlevel, but if you have ventured past the dungeon level where they "could" have appeared (had you gotten the quest) would you then be able to request the item?

#2. Almost the same question as #1, but regarding MP games -- could you import a Single Player Unique into your MP game? For example, the Empyrean Band has "of thieves" associated with it, and is the only (?) Unique which does so. Really could help with those fire-arrow traps in Cats. Could you choose to import an Undead Crown into MP, since the life-stealing abilities "stack" with other lifestealing items, while the life-stealing on the HoS doesn't? Griswold's Edge?

#3. What about items that are "impossible" to find (according to Jarulf)? Would they be allowable? I've seen listed on an item's inventory the Armor of Gloom and Jarulfs Guide says it is impossible to find in Hellfire. Allowable or no? What about an RoE? -- exists in Diablo (pretty common, actually) yet can't be found in HF. Allowable or no?

Just wondering.

Attika

[Lemming]

#1. Can SP Unique items be used as birthday gifts and imported into a SP game (via an item importer) in a SP game where they do not show?

There's no way of fully knowing what quests will appear in a particular game before you play it, so I would drop that consideration. This leaves, "Can SP unique items be used as birthday gifts in SP games?" Since any birthday gifts to SP characters will need to be imported, I'd say it doesn't matter one lick whether it's a quest item or a dungeon-droppable unique item.

#2. Almost the same question as #1, but regarding MP games -- could you import a Single Player Unique into your MP game?

Does this question pertain to legitimacy or elitist rule considerations? Traditionally, MP SNOBs restricted themselves to unique items available in MP (hence the "perfect amulet" rule since the only unique amulet is SP-only).

If you're considering item picks for an Iron Man SNOB game, I'd say it matters less from the legitimacy standpoint because IM is a closed environment : there's no gaming outside the IM game. So, just make a note of any "unusual" items in your write-up. I don't think anyone will object.

#3. What about items that are "impossible" to find (according to Jarulf)?

Same as #2.

It'd be fairly trivial to make a mod in which all uniques can drop. That'd remove both legitimacy and rules concerns, providing you game only with others using the mod.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

Now, depending on what you are trying to achieve by twinking the game, you maybe staying well within the spirit of the variant. If it is for the sole purpose to make the variant easier then the answer would be a flat out "NO". Which I do not think is the case for you. If the items some how add some interesting aspect or maybe a bit more challenge to the game/variant, then the answer is yes. Rules are made to be broken, but rules are almost never compromised JUST to make any varaints easier, not around here.

My BNM broke almost all the BNM soon after he went for his 3@30. He used all unique items but he was way beyond beyond naked as normal beyond naked can be. Sheesh, has it been that long I can't even remember the items... Anyway, the two items that made the most difference are Cranium Basher and the Constricting ring, and how he had to be played. He stopped using mana shield. He wouldn't have much mana for mana shield after -150 mana from the Basher anyway. The Constricting ring really added some fun and challenge to his play. At first glance, 75% resist all might look way unbalanced, but it also mean he was automatically taking 25% of the damage when hit. Not that much better than if he had 50% chance to block (can't remember stats). But an arty mage rely on not getting hit in the first place. Besides, the resists can hardly amount to the drawbacks a Constricting ring imposes on a ManaShieldless BNM. A constantly draining ~130 life meant he was never at full hp and always healing himself. Essentially, he can only cast offensive spells half of the time while he was never far from a one/two hit kill in hell.

Just an example how rules are broken, and reliving some old memories

It is a fun way to play a BNM that I would recommend to anyone looking to get a bit more out of the variant.

KoP

[Lemming]

Now, depending on what you are trying to achieve by twinking the game, you maybe staying well within the spirit of the variant.

Erm. He's asking about Elitist "birthday presents," not methods of twinking. i.e. He's asking how to play the variant within its own rules. Specifically, he has questions on certain types of birthday presents because the rules don't cover them.

Rules are made to be broken, but rules are almost never compromised JUST to make any varaints easier, not around here.

In Q 1, gifting quest items is undefined for SP SNOBs. There are no SNOB rules that cover this; the variant was written for MP. Rules

In Q's 2 and 3 : his question is "Can my MP SNOB use items that are considered illegitimate in MP?" This question isn't about breaking variant rules, but breaking legitimacy rules.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

My bad, I misread question 1.

Still, I stand behind what I said. Using an item importer, although I used one myself, is considered cheating (twinking the game) by the purist (which I am not). You can make a hundred mules, or you can make you life easier by using item import.

When I said "Rules are made to be broken..." I am not specifically talking about variant rules only. Twinking the GAME by using the best of both worlds, or 3-4 worlds if you include Hellfire, is breaking legitimacy rules and the rules and spirit of the variant. It is not all about spells; CD Snobs are suppose to have the problems associated with the limited choice of available uniques. For example, if someone made a mod with absolutly godly unique items therefore legitimizing the items, would it still be the same game? We have such a mod, it is called Diablo 2. We tried and failed to convert a variant with such simple rules.

KoP

[Attika]

If you are not going to allow item importers at all, how are you suggesting a person play the Elistist variant in Single Player?

Even 100 mules won't matter since you won't have access to the Cornerstone of the World with a beginning character.

And of course it would then be impossible to play an IronSnob at all.

Att

[KingOfPain]

I did not say Items Importer should not be allowed as I have stated I used one myself. In fact, I/we even used third party program(s) for some Ironman games - Time Stamp h.acks. ;p

KoP

[Lemming]

Using an item importer, although I used one myself, is considered cheating (twinking the game) by the purist (which I am not).

Illegitimate items = cheating. Twinking is items "beyond your means." Purists use only items they find, so they'd have no need for an importer. Moreover, accepting gifts would not make them a cheater, merely no longer pure. If you mean "purist" in the "I'm pure legit" sense (which I scorn because it's a meaningless statement that confuses itself with previous purist jargon), then such a player would more object to the use of a third-party program than the idea that you're transferring items (instead of, say, duplicating them).

Twinking the GAME by using the best of both worlds, or 3-4 worlds if you include Hellfire, is breaking legitimacy rules and the rules and spirit of the variant. It is not all about spells; CD Snobs are suppose to have the problems associated with the limited choice of available uniques.

Right. That's why I said, "Traditionally, MP SNOBs restricted themselves to unique items available in MP (hence the "perfect amulet" rule since the only unique amulet is SP-only)." SNOB rules consider only an MP environment and items legitimately available in MP.

For example, if someone made a mod with absolutly godly unique items therefore legitimizing the items, would it still be the same game?

Of course not. But you can play a SNOB in Netherworld, Middle Earth, VK, TheDark, and other mods. It's recognized that the character is a SNOB of that mod, and its achievements are clearly differentiated from vanilla SNOB achievements. Similarly, a mod that allows all uniques to drop (because Blizzard did stupid things with qlvls and basetypes) would be more interesting for the SNOB, but it'd clearly be confined to that mod environment. However, the mod would still be similar enough to vanilla D1 that SNOBbish achievements would be comparable.

-Lemmy

[Lemming]

In fact, I/we even used third party program(s) for some Ironman games - Time Stamp h.acks.

Do you still have those?

-Lemmy

[Attika]

KoP, I'm with Lemming -- do you still have any of those timestamp hacks? They would make running IM tournaments a bit more fair.

Then, in regards to Hellfire Single Player Elitists, look at this -- your answer to the first question.

"If it is for the sole purpose to make the variant easier then the answer would be a flat out "NO".

Receiving a SP Unique item as a Birthday Gift in a Single Player Elitist game would make the game/variant EXACTLY as hard to play as if the item had actually happened to appear, by chance, that game.

But Elitists don't have to wait for chance -- they get Birthday Gifts.

Since Elitists by their rules have access via Birthday Gifts at game start and every fifth birthday to any (exception: IronSnobs are items qlevel <= clevel + 2) Unique item available in the game, it would seem that SP Elitists _should_ have access to SP Uniques. The game difficulty would be the same -- no harder, no easier.

So I'm with you 100% in that if the inclusion of the Items DOES make the game easier, then the rules should NOT allow it. However,if inclusion of the Items does NOT make the game easier, then the rules_should_ allow it.

Ergo, SP Uniques should be allowed in SP Elitist Games, but NOT in MP Elitist games.

Att

PS Realize too that SP Elitists will be a bit harder to play overall since they must use the Unique crappy amulets that exist in Hellfire. No "perfect" ammys for them!