[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Irgy]

We really ought to get the cows farmed ASAP, since we'll be working that tile pretty much the whole game. I think it's worth a little worker inefficiency to get that one prioritized.

It is, but don't go there this turn. From memory in the test game, the farmable tile 1N of where the worker is now will be worked as soon as it's finished. So there's no harm in farming it first, and it's more efficient to do it now. Also note that moving 1N isn't effectively any further from the cows, because of the row of hills.

Other than that - it looks like Dantski finally got a tech. He's had 16 turns to work on it, with 2 population for part of that time, so let's call it 168 raw commerce as a first approximation. Assuming he went directly for something, it pretty much has to be Mysticism (200 beakers + prereq bonus works out nicely for it coming in last turn). Let's remember to check next turn if he revolts to God King, shall we? . At least that explains why he delayed the worker, there literally would have been nothing for it to work on.

Making it almost exactly the same as my FFHPBEM3 start, which has got me all the way to my current glorious 5th place in score at T100 Let's hope it works better for him. I still think worker+agriculture first would have been a much better choice for him here. Especially with his worldspell protecting him from the threat of a warrior rush or some such nonsense.

[Mardoc]

It is, but don't go there this turn. From memory in the test game, the farmable tile 1N of where the worker is now will be worked as soon as it's finished. So there's no harm in farming it first, and it's more efficient to do it now. Also note that moving 1N isn't effectively any further from the cows, because of the row of hills.

Mmm, that's a good point. As long as we're working both tiles, it doesn't matter where the farm is, it's +1f either way. It would matter if we weren't going to work both, but not when we are.

Especially with his worldspell protecting him from the threat of a warrior rush or some such nonsense.

Now there's an interesting thought - next time there's an unrestricted leaders game, a potential combo could be something like Jonas of the Elohim - one could run a literal farmer's gambit, either no defenders at all or just enough to prevent unhappiness. And it wouldn't even be a gambit - 30 turns ought to be enough to react to just about anyone.

[NobleHelium]

Are you sure the Elohim worldspell lasts 30 turns on quick? Stasis is scaled by game speed, for example.

[Irgy]

Yes, it's 20 turns on quick I'm pretty sure. Still a very long time though really.

[Mardoc]

Not much to report on T18, either. I did start the northern farm instead of heading south immediately. Granary should have finished at the end of the turn, so we need to decide what's next - a second worker, or a scout, or warrior? I'm leaning toward a scout, then warrior, then worker, but could be persuaded otherwise.

Sciz did not catch us - either the starts are different, or he's working hammer-heavy for some reason. Ichabod's got another population, though.

We find our first wolf, too - and he's combat III!

[Irgy]

Not much to report on T18, either. I did start the northern farm instead of heading south immediately. Granary should have finished at the end of the turn, so we need to decide what's next - a second worker, or a scout, or warrior? I'm leaning toward a scout, then warrior, then worker, but could be persuaded otherwise.

Scout, warrior, elder council, more warriors (up to our free unit limit, for instance), worker was my plan. We're a bit behind in warriors, and the second worker has nothing to do until Education is finished anyway. So there's no rush to build it, better off growing more.

Sciz did not catch us - either the starts are different, or he's working hammer-heavy for some reason.

That's odd. I wonder what he's up to? Oh, I've got one thought. He might have had to move the worker 1 extra tile, and so got the wheat a turn later. It's already clear that the starts aren't literally identical from what we can see of other people's capitals. I suspect they're the same resources on plains and a river and with hills scattered around, but the hills in different spots. So Sciz is probably on a hill 2 tiles away from the wheat.

A lot of deduction for a fairly unhelpful conclusion, but there you have it.

We find our first wolf, too - and he's combat III!

Ouch! The odds are still in our favour though mind you, +60% for it and +75% for us. We'll get some good exp if we survive at least. It's good really, it means some other sucker was probably killed by it at poor odds. Though since it might be Selrahc (just based on who'd be in the area who we haven't met) that might just mean less contact for us.

[Mardoc]

Oh, well, yes, I hadn't taken into account that we've nearly unlocked Elder Councils - and we're even getting them doubled! Definitely that should come as soon as convenient, both for the beakers and the start on our academy.

[Azoth]

Not much to say yet, except that you seem to have uncovered 4(!) Incense tiles to the southeast of the capital. (2 are visible in the T1 screenshot, and your scout found 2 more on T18.) I can't tell if they would all fit in the BFC of a megacity, or if there are any food resources nearby (well, there is an oasis at least) but that would make for a monster commerce city, especially after KotE. BtS trains you to value Gold over Incense because Mining comes well before Calendar on the tech tree, but that's not the case in FFH. Gold and Incense provide the same +6 commerce, but you generally reach Calendar first to unlock Agrarianism. I would definitely explore that whole area before picking the gold for your first city.

Also, I think you should consider sticking with Pacifism for the time being. It made sense to switch to Nationhood on T0 before you founded the capital; but once God-King comes in, the -20% unit production penalty will become a net +30% unit production boost. That will cut down on the hammers lost to rounding and, at the same time, +50% GPP should bring that first Great Scientist a couple of turns sooner. You can always switch to Nationhood later, along with Apprenticeship, at Education.

[Mardoc]

Not much to say yet, except that you seem to have uncovered 4(!) Incense tiles to the southeast of the capital. (2 are visible in the T1 screenshot, and your scout found 2 more on T18.) I can't tell if they would all fit in the BFC of a megacity, or if there are any food resources nearby (well, there is an oasis at least) but that would make for a monster commerce city, especially after KotE. BtS trains you to value Gold over Incense because Mining comes well before Calendar on the tech tree, but that's not the case in FFH. Gold and Incense provide the same +6 commerce, but you generally reach Calendar first to unlock Agrarianism. I would definitely explore that whole area before picking the gold for your first city.

No, apparently our screenshots haven't given the right sense of scale, they're well outside of range of each other. That said, the in-game mouseovers disagree with you - incense is base 1, +5 with plantation, while Gold is base 2 (+1 in this case for the river), + 6 with Mine, also +1 hammer with Mine. Gold also has the advantage of immediately, directly, providing happiness instead of requiring a temple be built. So the final product is a 0/2/9 tile for the mine vs 0/0/6 for an incense. Granted, more tiles can make up for a single good one.

But really, the biggest problem is that food is almost always a greater limit than commerce, and this map in particular drives that home. We can always turn food into commerce by building towns, and in fact that's our main econ plan due to Enclaves, but getting food is a lot harder

I'm not completely convinced that c??? will in fact be our second city (among other reasons, it's a bit of a hike from the capital), it's just the greatest conglomeration of food we've found so far. If we're lucky, our current scout or new scouts find something that's awesome in comparison. The gold is a nice bonus, but if we were founding a city for gold, it could as easily be a settlement. Working 4 incense tiles, if such a thing exists, would require a massive +8 bonus food from elsewhere in the VBFC; c?? has only +6 with every food bonus improved and worked, +7 after KoTE. And that's the richest site we've found to date!

Also, I think you should consider sticking with Pacifism for the time being. It made sense to switch to Nationhood on T0 before you founded the capital; but once God-King comes in, the -20% unit production penalty will become a net +30% unit production boost. That will cut down on the hammers lost to rounding and, at the same time, +50% GPP should bring that first Great Scientist a couple of turns sooner. You can always switch to Nationhood later, along with Apprenticeship, at Education.

This is worth more consideration. We shouldn't have too much rounding losses to fear with our capital growing up to size 8 immediately, just about every tile producing at least 1 hammer. On the other hand, we'll be making a lot of units - scouts, barb protection, eventually something that can stand up to Sciz - it all adds up. Of course so do beakers, and those ought to be in shorter supply than hammers on this map.

I don't really know if it'll be worth a second revolt to pick up Apprenticeship, though, at least not that early in the game. Every lost turn is precious, and we don't intend to fight a war, especially if we can intimidate Sciz into going elsewhere. Kurios are one of the fastest civs out of the gate, due to the +3 happy and sprawling, but if we throw that away with excessive revolts, then all we become is a civ with a couple big targets on our back.

I don't know, I can see both angles here, maybe Irgy will have something else to add to the conversation.

[Irgy]

No, apparently our screenshots haven't given the right sense of scale, they're well outside of range of each other. That said, the in-game mouseovers disagree with you - incense is base 1, +5 with plantation, while Gold is base 2 (+1 in this case for the river), + 6 with Mine, also +1 hammer with Mine. Gold also has the advantage of immediately, directly, providing happiness instead of requiring a temple be built. So the final product is a 0/2/9 tile for the mine vs 0/0/6 for an incense. Granted, more tiles can make up for a single good one.

But really, the biggest problem is that food is almost always a greater limit than commerce, and this map in particular drives that home. We can always turn food into commerce by building towns, and in fact that's our main econ plan due to Enclaves, but getting food is a lot harder

I'm not completely convinced that c??? will in fact be our second city (among other reasons, it's a bit of a hike from the capital), it's just the greatest conglomeration of food we've found so far. If we're lucky, our current scout or new scouts find something that's awesome in comparison. The gold is a nice bonus, but if we were founding a city for gold, it could as easily be a settlement. Working 4 incense tiles, if such a thing exists, would require a massive +8 bonus food from elsewhere in the VBFC; c?? has only +6 with every food bonus improved and worked, +7 after KoTE. And that's the richest site we've found to date!

Incense will eventually be 1/1/6, so if food is the limit we would compare two 1/1/6 tiles to one 0/2/9 tiles and the incense comes out better once we have the population. So it's worth considering. Incense is also similar to a plains cottage though, with a bit more commerce and no need to wait for it to grow, but also no chance for it to become an enclave.

Gold is a better resource, but we only need a settlement to claim the resource.

But your main point about food, as I understand it, is that we shouldn't worry too much about what commerce tiles are available, especially since we can run cottages for commerce anyway. We should instead worry about how much food we can pack into the one even-bigger-fat-cross. In that regard, "c???" is fairly decent, though we've got time to look for better.

This is worth more consideration. We shouldn't have too much rounding losses to fear with our capital growing up to size 8 immediately, just about every tile producing at least 1 hammer. On the other hand, we'll be making a lot of units - scouts, barb protection, eventually something that can stand up to Sciz - it all adds up. Of course so do beakers, and those ought to be in shorter supply than hammers on this map.

I don't really know if it'll be worth a second revolt to pick up Apprenticeship, though, at least not that early in the game. Every lost turn is precious, and we don't intend to fight a war, especially if we can intimidate Sciz into going elsewhere. Kurios are one of the fastest civs out of the gate, due to the +3 happy and sprawling, but if we throw that away with excessive revolts, then all we become is a civ with a couple big targets on our back.

I don't know, I can see both angles here, maybe Irgy will have something else to add to the conversation.

Even before God King, the problem with pacifism is not so much rounding as just the raw 20% in the first place. For apprenticeship yes, rounding is the killer, because rounding makes it as bad as pacifism all the way up until 6 base hammers. Pacifism only really "loses out" to rounding-down for 1 and 2 hammers, as soon as you get to 3, 3x0.8=2.4 which should by all rights round to 2 anyway even if it was round-to-nearest.

My point being that rounding isn't the issue so much as the overall 30% penalty to military production. We'll be at around 7-10 hammers at that stage, so we'll lose 2 or 3 hammers whenever we're building military, which will be most of the time. In exchange, we'll only get 1gpp per turn extra.

So it doesn't seem that good on face value. However, that 1 extra gpp will get us an Academy 2 turns sooner, which is worth a whole turn's worth of commerce (16 or 17 by then I think). The extra hammers give us more warriors, the value of which is, well, hard to evaluate really

The other problem though is when to get back out of it. If we have to do another revolt, we lose everything we've gained in commerce and even more production. It's not worth revolting for Apprenticeship either in my opinion. So, the revolt out of Pacifism would have to come along with agrarianism, which won't happen until Calendar, which is a lower priority than Education, event cash, Animal Husbandry, Horseback Riding, Writing and Exploration at the very least. So we'll be stuck in it for a long time, and lose quite a bit of our potential centaur production too.

On the whole then I'm still leaning towards Nationalism, but I can still see a case for sticking with Pacifism.