[SPOILERS] Athlete and Lewwyn are SHAKA OF THE VIKINGS

[Lewwyn]

What time is it? War Time!

This was a really great turn, took a while to play it, micro all the cities, move all the units into position and all, but it was really worth it and it translates into a fun update. Lets Begin:



Here we see that Humility has NOT been adequately reinforced. He's added 1 crossbow with a 1 pop whip. This is odd because you'll see later he has a galley outside the city... Oh... Shit... Just realized he could have 2 crossbow on that galley. Retake the city. I only have two injured units in it and ones the GG at 2.3 health... I should have moved the last healthy zerker into the city instead of leaving him on the boat. Well we'll see. That is something I was worried about when I was taking "Sloth" back way back when. I didn't take the city that turn because I didn't want him to retake it. I do think that's what he did though here and that will fuck me hard. I could have stopped it if I had been thinking about it before ending the turn. Dang it. Now I feel all anxious. I'll still be able to retake the city again if he does do that, but I will lose the GG and zerker that are in the city. Plus whatever it takes to take it again. Pain in my....

Be cool, be cool.

He's also decided, now instead of earlier when it could have made a difference, to start running that crossbow he left behind towards my stack. Too late buddy, but thanks for coming off the forest tile for me.

Let's go to the log following my attack(which I didn't even need to sim based on his lack of reinforcement):



First note that Nakor has made his first capture of the war already. Nice phracts...

And second, Yes, that 2nd Cat withdrew at 1% odds to withdraw. That was some serious luck. Really made it worth while too since it completely redlined the full health Crossbow with city defense promotion! Also, the one trebuchet withdrew. The first actually had 45% odds to withdraw but failed . After that my CR 3 Zerk had 94% odds, and every zerk after had 90%+ odds. I used the zerk off the boat for the final attack and saved the GG. After I took the city I used the GG to take out the lone Crossbow behind me at 87% odds. The island was cleared:



Also just a note. This city is awesome. The Forge, Trading post, Granary and even a Colosseum survived the taking of the city! Was a really great pull. You will also notice the galley and the caravel outside the city. His GS must be on that caravel.

Note at this point I realized the possibility of there being crossbows on the galley. Went back and wrote it at this point.

Well lets move on to a happier subject, war with Nakor:



The screenie says it all. My mass of forces in two stacks merging into one stack will land on the forest next to the city next turn. At this point, I'm all in fog to him. Next turn I declare, move and demand Temperance. He can gift me the city for peace or he can lose it to my troops and have a war on his north border. I have ivory this turn and will create some War Elephants as well. In the north you can see my settler and LB on the Galleon. I have reinforcements on the way and I have a scout building for a GG medic in Forseti.

Also, in terms of infastructure I've whipped a castle and 2 libraries, I'm chopping 2 forges and a courthouse. I will whip a market next turn in Freya after it grows pop. Markets will finish naturally in both island cities in 2 turns. So I'm trying to get a handle on my GNP and science all the while starting a new war while the last one isn't even finished.

[Rowain]

..... all the while starting a new war while the last one isn't even finished.

Well you are Shaka of the Viking so that at least is expected .

Congrats on a war well fought and Good Luck in your next war.

[luddite]

Here we see that Humility has NOT been adequately reinforced. He's added 1 crossbow with a 1 pop whip. This is odd because you'll see later he has a galley outside the city... Oh... Shit... Just realized he could have 2 crossbow on that galley. Retake the city. I only have two injured units in it and ones the GG at 2.3 health... I should have moved the last healthy zerker into the city instead of leaving him on the boat. Well we'll see. That is something I was worried about when I was taking "Sloth" back way back when. I didn't take the city that turn because I didn't want him to retake it. I do think that's what he did though here and that will fuck me hard. I could have stopped it if I had been thinking about it before ending the turn. Dang it. Now I feel all anxious. I'll still be able to retake the city again if he does do that, but I will lose the GG and zerker that are in the city. Plus whatever it takes to take it again. Pain in my....

Be cool, be cool.

Don't worry... take a deep breath... it'll be ok.
Even assuming that you're right, and that he does have two Xbows on the galley, I would think you'd have good odds of surviving at least one battle, with cover aggressiver berserzkers against amphibiously attacking Xbows.

[Lewwyn]

Thanks Rowain.

Don't worry... take a deep breath... it'll be ok.
Even assuming that you're right, and that he does have two Xbows on the galley, I would think you'd have good odds of surviving at least one battle, with cover aggressiver berserzkers against amphibiously attacking Xbows.

Yeah, its not like his Xbows are amphibious. I'm aware but for a moment I was pissed at myself for not considering the possibility before I ended turn. usually spend a good 5 minutes before I end the turn saying to myself, is there anything I'm missing, is there anything else I can do right now to improve my situation.

But even more everything is fine now:

Gifted the Explorer.

Currently in Temperance:
1 Crossbow
1 Cataphract
1 Maceman
1 Axeman

No hurry on the zerker I think. I just embarked on a minor offensive vs Ruff (flanked away all his catapults immediately so there is little danger of bad things occurring), and he clearly wouldn't be in time for that anyway.

Seven

Currently in Humility are my two zerkers, and now also an explorer gifted from Seven. Even if he were to have two crossbows, and even if they were to attack and win both battles, I'd still hold the city and all its wonderful buildings that carried over.

In addition, looking at that unit list in Temperance, I have no worries about taking the city if Nakor does in fact want to fight. He also has an axe a longbow and a crossbow in Antioch just south of that. But doesn't have the engineering to allow the units to make it to Temperance that turn, plus I could kill them too even if he could.

I wonder how I would fair in full scale war with Nakor and his phracts, but I'm not really sure I want to find out. If he gifts for peace, I'm going to build the walls and castle ASAP, but even then the city will probably have Nakor's culture to its south tiles. So we'll see if the full hammer swings back my way.

[NobleHelium]

If Nakor gifts the city, he should lose all culture in the city's inner ring.

[Lewwyn]

If Nakor gifts the city, he should lose all culture in the city's inner ring.

Yeah that would be the ideal situation. Just gotta wait for the turn to see.

[Lewwyn]

Turn came in. First I checked Humility:



All good on that front. TRD has sent his Galley and Caravel back towards his last city. You can see that his last city has 2 Crossbows on 40% culture defense. I wonder if he'll grab wall. Question becomes do I simply throw 5 zerkers at the city or do I land the cat and treb on the island with the zerkers and bombard/collateral. Either way I have some time to figure that out. I want to heal up a few units anyway.

Next I Declared War on Nakor, then moved my units in:



You can see in the pic its 18 units, 5 siege 13 normal units. I'm taking that city no matter what, but I don't have much interest in taking the rest of Nakor's cities. In fact past Temperance I might just start razing him.

In foreign news, I got my scout to the south and he checked up on Seven's war:



WTF! Ruff is leaving that city wide open. You gotta believe that he's leaving it open for Nakor... Thankfully, Seven's stack is right there and can see the open city. He has HAs knights and chariots which couldl all take it. Though I'm betting his focus is on Ruff city I have highlighted with all the archers...

Also, I opened an off of peace to Nakor if he gifts me Temperance. I also sent him a message:

Greetings Nakor!

You will notice as you open the save this turn that we are currently at war. My units are outside of Temperance and have the ability to take the city next turn. I was sad that it came to this, but as you may have guessed, nipping Temperance from under my nose and declaring peace within the turn following has irked me to no end. Additionally, as you may have noticed, your procurement of Temperance offers you a distinct strategic advantage in that as your culture expands you will have easy access to no less than 4 of my cities which invariably makes it more difficult for me to defend. As such, given the nature of your procurement of Temperance and, more importantly, the strategic value of the city, I simply won't stand for it to remain in your hands.

There are two options. I have placed forward a offer in game in which you gift me Temperance in exchange for peace. You may choose to ignore this offer in favor of War. I have no true wish for a long war, but neither can I abide Temperance in your possession. I also must make clear I have no designs on your self settled cities. I would only hazard to make this demand upon you because it was a city you have only recently taken and in an irksome way. I can make assurances that I would never be so foolish as to declare war to demand Iconium or Antioch. Of course, whether you believe this or not is entirely your prerogative.

Only by receiving the city can I truly grasp the meaning of temperance itself. I am willing however to listen to any other stipulations you have for this peace treaty, however, I cannot guarantee I will agree and there will be absolutely no peace without Temperance.

Lewwyn

We shall see how he reponds, I hope he doesn't want a NAP to seal the peace... or maybe that would be fine. Dunno. Depends on if I can catch up in tech fast enough.

[Gaspar]

What do you *think* Nakor will do? I have my suspicions, as I've obviously gotten a decent read from playing with him, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the situation, particularly since you've spent a lot of time recently trying to ascertain them.

By the by, if I haven't said, you do a nice job with updates, good to read. And hi, since I haven't said so in a bit.

[Lewwyn]

What do you *think* Nakor will do? I have my suspicions, as I've obviously gotten a decent read from playing with him, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the situation, particularly since you've spent a lot of time recently trying to ascertain them.

By the by, if I haven't said, you do a nice job with updates, good to read. And hi, since I haven't said so in a bit.

lol, thanks Gaspar. I'll try my best to answer the question.

Well, this is a difficult read. I'm leaning towards him choosing the first option and accepting the peace gifting me the city. However, he will stipulate a NAP to be signed with it, maybe 50 turns or whatever he thinks it will take for him to out tech me to rifles. AT the bare I believe this is what he will do for the following reasons:

A) His army is in the south, ostensibly capturing Ruff's cities. I know its there because the last two turns I've spent sending my scout through his land and I've watched his phracts heading in that direction. Now I have my suspicions that his army is REALLY there to take empty city that ruff is giving him and then ambush Seven's army that's also taking cities. Either ambush or simply deter. Either way his army is actually there to face Seven.

B) He hasn't been producing any new units. I think he nay have built up what he believes is an acceptable army to take ruff's land and deter Seven. I believe he'll gobble as much as he can and then sit back to tech. or if he sees an opening take out Seven. But the fact is, he hasn't been building units for the last 5 or so turns according to his power graph. If he really wanted to face Seven or I in a long drawn out struggle he would have continued to build up during that time.

C) Pride is always an issue when it comes to city demands. However, Temperance is not a city he built, its not a city he worked hard to take. It was low hanging fruit, a bonus of sorts. I believe he will see it as expendable and of less importance in the overall empire than multiple cities and lands he'll get from Ruff, not to mention cities he can resettle himself. That's the bigger prize.

D) I'm taking the city no matter what. There's a possibility if he doesn't accept the peace that he'll move the troops in that city out and let me take it, but will not gift it for peace. Maybe he'll do peace after I take it, and actually this is the most likely in my opinion. He'll withdraw, force me to take it and put it into revolt and his culture will come up to the side. I still think after that he'll sue for peace.

E) He'll want a NAP. This will probably be the key to the whole deal. If he can get a long term NAP from me for the city, I believe he'll make the call. That way he knows I'm out of the picture for sure and he can focus on Ruff/Seven. I don't know for sure, but I suspect he see's Seven as the bigger threat. (India, obviously :D )

So these are all the reasons and factors I think he will accept, or at the very least give up on Temperance and try to sue for peace. Truth be told, this is the best opportunity in terms of tech and time and production for me to attack him, but my infrastructure is so sorely lacking that I almost can't afford to do it. Thing is, I'm fairly sure that if he doesn't take the peace that I can raze Antioch and Iconium. I would simply start pushing out the War Elephants, cats and press on at those two. Currently only 3 cities are producing units and everything else is producing infrastructure. I can easily flip the switch and get massive unit production. Maybe I'm overstating my ability to make war again, but its not that much of a stretch IMO.

Thing is Nakor is in a difficult place. He's almost alone now against two players who are obviously friendly. His two best options for allies have been utterly destroyed or crippled and the best they can offer in terms of aid is to slow us down or allow Nakor to cannibalize them. He's obviously played a strong game so far, out expanding everyone and building, teching up to his strong UU. The problem is we struck first. Now he has to fear Seven and I both declaring War on him. SO the question becomes, what if he stipulates a NAP and I don't accept? AT that point I think I've forced him into going to war. And it might even be the sort of final war we see in MOO. He may kick all cities in to high unit production, forcing me to do the same. At that point it will be a question of if he can subdue me before Seven finishes Ruff and runs over his south border. But does he really want to try that?

Here the thing about going full war for him. If have to take the city and he decides no peace, I'm not going to sit in the city. I'm probably going to sit outside the city, behind it waiting for him to retake it. Then I retake it again , probably raze it and wait for enough cats and WE to be produced. Then when his stack and my stack clash It'll likely be in my territory where I can control the terrain and re supply faster. All of that though is my base plan. We'll have to see what actually happens though.

I hope that helps answer a bit of my thought process.


On a side note I'm teching compass, optics, and getting close to Astronomy. I may get astro to one turn and then go work on other techs and only pop astro when I need it, IE if war drags on and I need to defend against Nakor's galleons.

[Lewwyn]

Lewwyn,

Thanks for the warning. I understand your concern but had hoped we could discuss this as civilized leaders.
Let's say that I give you Temperance, what are you willing to give me in exchange?

Kind regards,
Nakor

He wants me to negotiate against myself. He always does this. Its a no go.

How about you tell me what you want. Seems rather silly of me to negotiate against myself. As it stands, you give me the city or propose an alternate peace solution or I take it and we simply continue war.

Lewwyn

If he keeps this up I'll continue the war on principle.