RBP4 [SPOILERS] - Shaka of Zulu (sunrise089, regoarrarr, and friends)

[regoarrarr]

Emails to locke and luddite were also sent, along the same vein.

I decided to not reply to plako just yet - I'll wait to do that tomorrow after hopefully receiving some other replies overnight.

Oh and by the way, don't look now but who's in 7th place!!!???!?

One other note - our latest city only has 3 foreign trade routes, so we are now missing one possible foreign trade route. We have OBs with everyone but Lord Parkin and then we don't have TRs with luddite probably due to the mackoti war

[NobleHelium]

What's your breakeven bpt now?

[Ellimist]

Wow I need to start using "preview post" more so I do less immediate tweaking.

Is LP aware that he's the only person you aren't trading with?

[sunrise089]

We have a moogle NAP right?

[regoarrarr]

What's your breakeven bpt now?

I posted a few turns back - I think it was about 63bpt and it's probably about the same right now

As for Moogle, I don't think we have an official NAP but I will try and secure that. We have a pretty good relationship (unless he's just pretending so he can slip the dagger in our back )

[regoarrarr]

Some diplo coming in

First luddite

Hi,

Yeah, I saw that. plako has already taken WK's capital right? So he probably won't last much longer.

Are you about out of room to expand in then? My guess is that plako really doesn't want to fight another war right now, so as long as you've got some military you could defend any territory you take near him.

My own war situation is... complicated. I thought I was on the verge of victory (I have my own 29 unit stack in his territory) but he managed to build up an impressive army again, so I'm not sure I have enough to take him down. My biggest problem is that I still don't have catapults yet, and he does, so I might be forced to make peace.

I don't know any solutions I can give you. I was hoping that I could take out mackoti quickly, expand into his land, and be big enough to oppose plako by myself in the long term. I'm far away from him, so there's nothing I can do directly right now.

For what it's worth... I might get another GG soon, and maybe we could arrange a trade, if you're looking to boost up your military and help me recover economically.

-Luddite

Then we caught up on chat today also

luddite: haha ok
basically i don't know what to do anymore
i doubt i'll be able to conquer mackoti, and if plako has more land than anyone else, he'll just run away with it
Me: right
if i don't respond for awhile hang in there
luddite: ok
Me: i'm in the middle of a few things
but i do want to have this conversation
luddite: ok sure
Sent at 10:00 on Tuesday
Me: ok
so i think you probably do need to sign peace
luddite: yeah... i really wanted to capture his capital, but i might not have a choice
Me: the real question is whether you can coexist together
luddite: only way i could take him down now is MAYBE with a long pillaging war
Me: or if he's just going to keep building up to smack you later
luddite: haha i don't know
i haven't really talked to him much since the war began
Me: one request that i would have is that if you are going to take peace
let me konw first
as he offered to buy my iron for 15gpt
and i could use the 150 gold ;-)
luddite: haha
you'd do that right before we made peace?
dirty
Me: ;-)
luddite: out of curiosity... what happens to trade deals if someone loses the trade connection?
Me: i could do it now!
probably gets canceled
he could declare war on me i guess
luddite: eh, it wouldn't do him any good now, he just wanted that in case i pillage his copper i think
or maybe to make crossbows
Me: or if he's on the way to machinery
right
luddite: he did research metal casting earlier... but now he's researching mediation for some reason
Me: if you wouldn't mind and/or are thinking of signing peace, i'd love to make the offer to him
he asked a few days ago
but i haven't responded because i didn't want to make you angry
luddite: ok let me just make up my mind first what i'm going to do
Me: ok
you're pretty far away from plako, right?
luddite: yeah
i think i'm farther away from him than anyone
we talked about signing an NAP at the beginning of the game, but then we decided we were so far away that it would be pointless
Me: so did i email you last night?
luddite: yeah
Me: ok
luddite: i responded like 6 hours ago
Me: right
that's right
luddite: do you still have room to expand, or are you pretty much at the limit?
Me: i have some room to expand
but not a ton left
luddite: i have a unit down between you and plako, so i can see down there, but htat's all i know
Me: what i am trying to accomplish is plako let me settle that area near where your scout is
or at least leavev it empty for now
rather than aggressively landgrabbing 2 civ's worth of land
luddite: yeah
Me: did you follow / read about pb1 at all?
luddite: i did read through the lurker thread at one point, but i was kind of confused about what was happening
Me: ok
luddite: i know you were in that game... was plako?
Me: no
there was one part of it that is similar to this i think
exploit took over for krill
and had a crapload of cities
but basically pissed off everyone else
so we had a huge coalition just all declare on him
luddite: haha
Me: after we smacked him around for awhile
literally this was every other civ in the game
luddite: lol
Me: so after we smacked him around
he offered to give me all his cities
so i COULD have just taken all of them
luddite: he just wanted to get out of the game?
Me: yeah
i mean it was inevitable
but what i did was just divide them all up
luddite: hmm
Me: gave some to sunrise, some to dreylin, some to dsplaisted, etc
luddite: probably better to do that rather than make everyone angry at you
Me: right
i kind of think this is the same type of thing
but i can't MAKE plako think that
i'm surprised that he thinks that he can get away with it
luddite: weell except, he did fight the war entirely by himself
Me: there is that
but i've got some units available to attack in the norht
except plako told me not to
luddite: and it heoh
Me: ?
luddite: sorry, didn't mean to press enter there
was gonna just say "oh"
Me: ok
luddite: well anyway, how big is your army compared to plako's? probably a lot smaller right?
Me: uhhhhh
yeah
luddite: and nakor doesn't have any army either
so i mean, there's no real threat to plako right now
no reason he shouldn't just grab all the land
Me: except and unless we can provide him with real diplomatic reasons not to
luddite: yeah
i mean, if you nakor locke and lord parkin all ally, you could of course take him down
Me: right
i'm trying to at least organize a canceling / non-renewing of NAPs between the 4 of us
at least give him something to think about
luddite: ok
well for what it's worth i don't have an NAP so i could maybe help
although
i have to admit, i'm not sure i want to
Me: yea
luddite: having everyone gang up on the leader seems kinda unfair
Me: well the other option is letting him take 2 people's lands
and have him come after us with infantry to our rifles
now maybe you don't have to worry about that
luddite: heh, i guess that's a good reason i shouldn't try to finish off mackoti
Me: but then he'll have 3 times your land
and come after you with tanks to your infantry
or whatever
luddite: i know i know
Me: the only problem with NTT games is that it becomes VERY hard to stop a runaway
luddite: but i mean, let's say you do manage to take some land away from him
then lord parkin would be the new runaway
would you ally with me and plako against him?
Me: but he's nto a runaway
he's still at the same level of plako
but if LP did become an uber runaway
then yes, i would consider allying with you and plako against him
luddite: hmmm ok
Me: just so long as we stop before it's you and someone else allying against me ;-)
luddite: haha yeah
Me: you and i can race to alpha centauri
luddite: nah i'll just build the AP and get the cheese victory
Me: man i almost pulled that off in pb1
luddite: lol
Me: i got screwed because you have to have everyone have the religion the turn of the vote and then the turn afterwards (when the results come in) too
so they gifted the city away
luddite: actually if we're not careful, parkin might pull that off
Me: well he's still got to get poeple to vote for him
luddite: he could spread christianity to everyone's capital, and get mackoti and WK to vote for him
Me: you can't vote yourself in
i don't think he'd have the votes at this point
but it's out there
luddite: yeah probably not
just something to watch for
Me: and like i said, it's really hard to pull off
luddite: ok well anyway, here's the main question
what can i do?
i mean, if you want to fight plako, go for it
but i can't really send troops around the world for a war
Me: agreed
luddite: especially since i'll be behind on tech for a while
Me: hey i'm only 2200 beakers behind locke ;-)
luddite: haha
Me: not to mention the CS having parkin
luddite: yeah i saw
he has, what, 3 gold and 2 gems?
Me: wow i hadn't seen that
so the things you can do - don't declare war on anyone fighting plako
possibly close borders if we can get that going again
do you have any maps of that WK area?
like does knossos connect to the mainland?
or mycenae?
luddite: ummm
i don't know, i never had open borders with WK
i would guess that it does connect in the east, based on how quickly plako got circumnavigation
Me: hmm who's east of WK?
locke?
luddite: adlain
Me: ah right
but wk and adlain don't connect do they?
luddite: then locke
i'm not sure
i can see that the land gets close, i don't know if it actually connects
Sent at 10:37 on Tuesday
Me: so i know mycenae (the western city) connects to the rest of his core to the south
but i'm not clear if knossos (the eastern city) also does
or if it's a peninsula that only connects to the south through mycenae
luddite: ok
well i really don't know either
i've never entered his land
if it doesn't, i guess WK will survive for a while longer
especially if you block it off and close borders
you know... maybe i shouldn't mention this, but there is another way for you to keep up with plako
you could just invade adlain
Me: yeah
that's a long ways away though
luddite: i thought he was right below you?
Me: no
i'm above plako
luddite: hmm maybe not
so you have no connection to adlain?
Me: i do
but even the border is a long ways away
luddite: oh ok
Me: so i'd need a FP / versailles / SP
luddite: alright nm

[regoarrarr]

Email from Moogle

Thanks for your praise. :-) Adlain and I are back at peace again, and I think we can eventually enjoy good relations again (if we're not actually making a move on him that is), but for now I can expand as planned again. Did you get in touch with Locke about a possible three-nation war already btw? I picked up messaging with him again recently, and am not sure how much he knows about our plans.

The last time someone tried to rally the Civs against Plako, the response was lukewarm at best. If we want to orchestrate a unified front against him, then we need to do a much better job at convincing the others, and ensure their cooperation somehow. At this point I'm as yet unsure what that might look like.

Anyway, while Plako is still worrying, and certainly is the elephant in the room right now, I'm also starting to worry about Lord Parkin. Plako's war and recent gains will no doubt cost him a lot of gold in maintenance and unit upkeep, and he will need time to consolidate his spoils of war before he can become aggressive again or else it would surely leave him without an economy to speak of. In the meantime, LP has basically been able to expand peacefully, and his demographics are becoming pretty scary as well. Has he been on your radar as well given you share 'borders' (or lakes) with him to your west?

If Plako is becoming aggressive against you, I will definitely consider coming to your aid. But it would be even better if other Civs were to do the same. At best I can reinforce your front lines. Other Civs may be able to open an entire new front in his likely lightly protected back instead.

-SleepingMoogle

[regoarrarr]

Continuing to work the phones - here's my reply to moogle

I haven't talked to Locke specifically about that but I expect he'd be interested. I"m not sure WHY i think that but that's just the general feel I'm getting. I think it makes sense to bring him in when we have some more specifics about the whens and wheres.

I'm also interested in / worried about (the newly Bureaucratic) Lord Parkin, but I still think that plako is the real problem. Civ is all about land, and if the international community just sits back and lets plako take twice the land of every other civ, how are we going to stop him?

I didn't follow PBEM3 too closely, so maybe this isn't a great example, but from what I remember, Sandover was able to grab more land than some of the other civs (through aggressive settling and his own "unique" style of diplomacy ;-) ). Which he was then able to turn into a huge military advantage that took every other civ to stop, and even then it was dicey.

I like NTT games over having tech trading on, but the one problem with them is that it becomes near-impossible to stop a runaway. How are we going to stop him when he has twice the production and infantry to our rifles, etc. Or maybe you say that hey you're not his neighbor so it's not your problem, but then after he takes out me, how are you going to stop him when he has THREE times the production and tanks and planes to your infantry?

So, I know that there's not a whole lot you can do from your position, but I think we at least need to make the displeasure of the international community known. Just tell him that NO we will not let him just take out WK and take all that land. He's not quite in the "Spullla" position where he can afford to just blow off the other 8 of us, right?

Anyways those are my thoughts.

Oh and also sunrise089 wanted me to ask you to make sure that we had a formal NAP - I know we've had talks but I wasn't entirely sure we had an "official" agreement - can we ink something like that? Duration up to you but I'd say at least for starters till T180 or so?

[regoarrarr]

Locke sent 2 emails

Hmmm. Yea this is a real problem. I saw WarriorKnight defensive stack in Corinth this turn with scout. He has city on hill with city walls. 6 archers 5 horse archers 5 spearmen 3 phalanxes. It is good stack but it will lose eventually. plako take major losses to kill that but he will kill it.

Well I proposed boycott earlier which didnt work. Maybe we can work out something with all of plako neighbors. You and Parkin and Nakor. If you all threatened to intervene in war maybe we could get peace and keep WK alive. I dont know I am throwing out ideas here. I am happy to talk with plako. We are still on pretty good terms cause I dont think he know about boycott thing :D.

plako economy has to be hurting from this war. Our costs are pretty bad with 13 cities and he have 18. Not everyone has Great Lighthouse and 1000 gold to burn through LOL. If you have ideas I am happy to talk with other teams and help. We are in weak bargain position though. Far away and small army. I think getting coalition of some kind with plako neighbors is best chance.

and

I also had one other idea tonight. Not related to plako. You were only team who mentioned seeing techs on diplo screen after we get Alphabet. No one else interested. So I will offer you a deal. You have all this gold from Great Merchant mission. For gift of 100g I will email you every tech that other teams have right now. If you gift 250g then I will email you every turn what other teams get for rest of game. Keep you updated constantly no need to research Alphabet. It is dead end tech and leads to nothing. Maybe you are not interested but I thought I would offer. You can see what techs we have so it doesnt hurt us or anyting. Maybe I can help you and you can share some wealth with me LOL.

[regoarrarr]

Reply back to Locke

Hi Locke,

Thanks for the reply. Let me tackle the "easier" question first. I think that we would also have to decline your offer regarding techs / Alphabet. 250g wouldn't be bad for not having to research a 517 beaker tech, but it seems like it would be pretty awkward to have to wait for you to send screengrabs of F4, or transcribe the techs, or whatever. Not to mention that it's possible if you were transcribing the techs you might make an error, or even an "intentional" error, should we at some point later in the game find ourselves on opposite sides :-). But the real sticking point is that Alphabet is a pre-req of Printing Press, so we would need to tech it eventually anyways. Maybe we can figure out a way to make something work - I wouldn't be opposed to paying you for periodic F4 screenshots, but 100g is quite a bit north of what I'd be willing to pay. (unless you slipped and added an extra zero on the end!) :-D

Okay so now let's talk some more about the plako problem... Your plan about us, Parkin and nakor threatening intervention is about what I was thinking, with a few problems. #1, apparently nakor has a NAP with plako till T165, and #2 I think it has to be more.

Militarily you're right - we can't all take part. I was talking to luddite and although he has a decent sized army, it's literally on the other side of the globe. But if we all canceled or non-renewed our NAPs with him as an international community, we may get him to think twice about it. You're right that you're not an immediate neighbor, but I think you're important to have on board. You're not THAT far away and as one of the leaders in this game (tech leader for sure), and as someone that is respected by most if not all of the other players, we need you on board. Even if it's just an email "co-signed" by the rest of the world stating that we will not stand for plako taking all of WK's lands.

What do you think?