[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Irgy]

Education comes in next turn! As does our first Great Person! Probably AH next, while the workers put up cottages. This game's been so slow recently that I may have to read the thread again just to remember what our plans were.

Tech options, as far as I see it, in my rough order of recommendation:

• Saving cash for events (at least 50gp). Nearly there already actually.
  
• Beeling Horseback Riding and take JKaen's capital.
  
• Exploration once our workers get bored (maybe not quite yet)
  
• Crafting, to give us something to build in the capital (brewery & tailor).
  
• Writing wants to be complete well before we change traits, so at the very least don't get everything else on the list before Writing.

[Mardoc]

Hmm, that makes sense. One turn at 0% science is probably enough to get our event slush fund, thanks to that graveyard.

Jkaen's capital is likely to be our strongest city2 site, period. The only concern I have is getting in diplo hot water as a result. Still, a few Centaurs ought to have no trouble taking it from him what with the Mistform. Maybe I should dial up Sciz and Ichabod and ask for NAP's to cover our flanks while we do that. If I can manage good NAP's, then I'm not too worried about retribution from Dantski and Selrahc. (Ok, just chatted with Ichabod - he's not much interested in NAPs, but is willing to sign a short one til T65 in case of Orthus)

Crafting is definitely a strong option, as well. I think I might go here next - it should be cheap and easy, then up to HBR. Although...if we're going to hit Jkaen, ASAP is a good idea - maybe a HBR beeline is appropriate. We've got the necessary worker techs to use what we've got, except Animal Husbandry.

Exploration I don't expect to be necessary short term, we've got at least 6 cottages to put up. But yes, I can see the value in going to Writing and libraries, too.

And the chat with Ichabod, in case you're interested:

Mozarth: Hey Mardoc
me: hi
Mozarth: Should I keep sending the saves/messages from PBEM VI to Irgy?
me: probably yes, unless he tells you to stop.
he can always delete them
but he said he'll still be around from time to time
was actually thinking about PBEM 6 at the moment
Mozarth: Ok! Hope is not something too serious
me: how do you feel about NAP's?
would you be interested in signing one for a while?
Sent at 10:27 PM on Monday
Mozarth: Well, I'm not a fan of NAP's
It just limits too much the game options
I know that there's already NAPs being signed in the game, but I prefer not to sign them, even if that makes me a target
me: I see
Mozarth: Well, if you don't want something too long, I see no problem
me: Wasn't planning a T300 NAP
but what would you be willing to consider?
Mozarth: Like until turn 60-65 (enough time for us to deal with a possible Orthus problem)
We could also plan something regarding the hippus
me: They do make me nervous, even all the way around the world like they are
Well, I'd be happy to sign a T65 NAP with you, even on the understanding that you probably won't want to renew
Mozarth: Ok! I'm ok with it.
me: The only thing with the Hippus is, I have trouble seeing a reason I don't want them to cripple a neighbor
Especially if it's Selrahc
Mozarth: They already have a NAP
Selrahc has NAPs with Sciz and Dantski
me: ah, that was clever of him
Mozarth: I'm a likely target for Hippus agression, since we are very close
me: with his 2 hammers worth...
Mozarth: :P
Sent at 10:34 PM on Monday
Mozarth: Just to clarify, I'm not totally against NAPs. If you are going to, say, attack Selrahc, feel free to come and negotiate a NAP with me
But without a purpose, they are too limiting
me: Will you promise confidentiality from here in the conversation?
Mozarth: No problem
May I post it for the lurkers?
me: yes, of course
if we can't trust the lurkers, we might as well not play at RB
We're thinking that Centaurs make a good time to be hitting someone
currently debating who that someone will be, but fighting dwarfs didn't appeal
And fighting Sciz doesn't appeal much either, because we couldn't keep anything we took
Sent at 10:39 PM on Monday
me: So - if you have a strong preference or have a joint operation in mind, we might be able to oblige
Mozarth: I'm not sure if early attacks are worth it.
You'll need massive numbers to defeat even Bronze warriors
me: That's mostly true.
it's just that the land is so bad
Mozarth: Dantski is not possible to attack
Selrahc is in the middle of the ice
me: true. The most we could hope for there is to force him to burn his world spell
although that might be worth doing, regardless
Mozarth: If you don't want to attack me or Sciz, that leaves Jkaen
Jkaen is a fragile target
me: Selrahc may be icebound, but he's definitely a long term threat
but yes, was leaning Jkaen, at least as long as the Mistform is able to keep him weak long enough
Mozarth: Mistform?
me: assuming that's what he was talking about as a potential bug
Sent at 10:43 PM on Monday
me: don't know that for sure, but you said you released Mistforms, Sciz killed one, and there's one missing
Mozarth: Missing? Who released the other?
me: maybe I misunderstood, but I thought your dungeon released 1 Giant and 2 Mistforms
don't they usually come in a pattern like that?
Mozarth: About Selrahc: Lanun are naturally bad at production. He'll be even worst... I don't fear him that much...
I don't know. I know the one who killed my warrior... No idea if there was another one
me: The thing is, he's the only one who can get normal food and commerce production on this map
the rest of us have to deal with plains at best, but Pirate coves are the same as ever
Mozarth: Well, you have a point there.
But there's nothing to be done right now, if I inderstand the map correctly
He's too far away
me: I do believe he's on the opposite end of the world from you, as Sciz is to me
Mozarth: Are you sure about Sciz? He's just a little south of me
Your second city will be close
me: He might be worth a raiding expedition of Centaurs, though, before he gets any production up
not 100% on Sciz, no. I think I know his location in terms of the general pattern, but I couldn't count tiles to him
Mozarth: No, it's not that close as I thought
me: You're interested in a mutual defense pact of some sort against Sciz?
Mozarth: Bah, my maps are so bad... I have no idea where the players are except for Sciz
me: yeah, that seems to be a side effect of all the desert, lots of nasties out there, and not even defensive terrain
anyhow, we're obviously not going to be declaring war tomorrow, and who knows - it may not come off at all
but it's not really worth considering if there's a chance of a dwarven dagger in our back
Mozarth: I'm not worried about Sciz that much... I don't understand what he's doing... His capital was size 3 until just a few turns ago...
me: I had thought that he was beelining Horseback Riding. And then he revolted to God King
Mozarth: He's at agrarianism + GK
me: so Calendar too
Mozarth: He needs calendar + AC + Myst for that
me: And of all maps to use agrarianism on
Mozarth: He's not close to HR... Only if he had a lot of luck
I think he delayed building a worker and that set him down
me: I don't think there were huts, but I suppose a dungeon was possible
Mozarth: About the "dwarven dagger", I'm not going to lie to you, Mardoc
I'm playing to win
That's another reason for my general dislike of NAPs
me: well, of course you're playing to win
and frankly, I'll be surprised if you come in any lower than 3rd, at minimum
Mozarth: I don't want to break treaties, so I'm not going to sign things I might want to break later
me: Well, that's fair. Of course the converse is that you'll have to watch your back as well
Mozarth: Yes, I am aware of that.
me: anyhow, we seem to have reached an understanding
Just to finish the talk about the PBEM, we have a NAP until turn 65?
me: Yes, end of turn, consider it signed from Kuriotates
assuming you're still interested
Mozarth: ok, it's signed

[Irgy]

Hmm, that makes sense. One turn at 0% science is probably enough to get our event slush fund, thanks to that graveyard.

Jkaen's capital is likely to be our strongest city2 site, period. The only concern I have is getting in diplo hot water as a result. Still, a few Centaurs ought to have no trouble taking it from him what with the Mistform. Maybe I should dial up Sciz and Ichabod and ask for NAP's to cover our flanks while we do that. If I can manage good NAP's, then I'm not too worried about retribution from Dantski and Selrahc. (Ok, just chatted with Ichabod - he's not much interested in NAPs, but is willing to sign a short one til T65 in case of Orthus)

Crafting is definitely a strong option, as well. I think I might go here next - it should be cheap and easy, then up to HBR. Although...if we're going to hit Jkaen, ASAP is a good idea - maybe a HBR beeline is appropriate. We've got the necessary worker techs to use what we've got, except Animal Husbandry.

Exploration I don't expect to be necessary short term, we've got at least 6 cottages to put up. But yes, I can see the value in going to Writing and libraries, too.

And the chat with Ichabod, in case you're interested:

I'm pretty sure there's time to beeline HBR then get writing before it's too late, as long as you don't do anything else. Although, having HBR, you'll want to be building centaurs not libraries, and there's no point researching writing if you don't get a library.

Sounds like a good conversation with Ichabod. Just a quick point, he said Sciz is just south of him, while doubting that was the other side of the map from us, but, assuming he's SW not straight S because Dantski is south and only a little east already, just south of Ichabod is the opposite side of the world from us. It's not all that big a world really.

[Mardoc]

We get Education and start on Animal Husbandry; our Great Scientist finishes and we settle him for an Academy. For the time being I turn off the sage specialist and work all farms, but I'm thinking that may be a waste of Philosophical and maybe I'll turn him back on next turn.

Also start our first Cottage, while the 2nd worker finishes a last farm. I'm thinking I may pave over some of the farms with cottages instead of building the cottages away from the river - we can only work so many tiles; best if they're getting the river commerce bonus.

[NobleHelium]

You know, it's been forever since we've seen a screenshot of your city. How about one?

[Mardoc]

You know, it's been forever since we've seen a screenshot of your city. How about one?

Ask and ye shall receive. Along with some important diplo and a possible significant change of plans.



As you can see, we've got farms everywhere, and we just started working our first cottage. Only 100ish turns until it's an Enclave!

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]Hey Mardoc,

I'm writing this regarding my previous message about the site of your second city.

I'm not going to lie to you. When you sent me the message that you were going to settle the spot taking the sheep and the reagents I wasn't very happy. I don't believe in something like a "natural right" to unclaimed lands, but that site is very close to my capital, so it made me a bit wary. But, at that time, I was considering attacking you as one of the optimal game plans, so a city so close to my borders would be a nice staging point for an invasion.

But my mind has changed since then. I think cooperation between our civilizations would be the best way to go regarding the game. So, the plan of attacking you was obviously pulled off. So, I'm here trying to find a diplomatic solution regarding the situation that botters me.

I really don't know how far that spot is from your capital, but I don't think it is as close to my capital city. My planned third city, the one which would be settled in the contested area, would go on the incense tile 1NW of the sheep (I think you can see it in your maps). The sheep would be in the first ring and the reagents on the second. So, is there anyway for you to settle a good city without conflicting too much with my proposed site? I don't want the gold you talked about for example. Unfortunately, I haven't scouted that area very well, so I can't see any other possible options. Maybe plaing a city closer to Jkaen could be a nice way to get his capital as a third city later (just for clarification, are you sure you can only have 3 cities? I remember something about the manual being wrong in PB's thread in FFH PBEM I, so maybe you can have 4 cities).

I don't want to sound demanding or anything like that, but I think what I'm saying here is reasonable. Unfortunately, I can't afford making much concessions to take the site. I'm probably going to settle it anyway and, while I don't think I can match your culture regarding the reagents tile, I can probably secure the sheep (it'll be in my first ring). What I can offer is the basis of a mutual cooperation that will drive our civilizations forward. This can translate into a longer NAP, resource trades, open borders. And it also means that I'll probably be crippling one of your opponents, because I feel that the dwarves need to make an impact in the early game to stay competitive for later.

Rest assured that I wouldn't be discussing the issue so openly if it wasn't for our good relations and the trust I feel we have in our communication.

Hope we can reach an agreement about it.

Kind Regards,

Ichabod
[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]

Ichabod,

That honestly explains a lot - we were slightly confused why you were
willing to give up the site without an argument, and our best
explanation was that it included a lot of desert. It was at the time
the best spot we had found on the map, period. However, we've gotten
a fair bit of scouting done between then and now, so when the save
comes around, I'll take a look and see if there's another spot that
can work. The nature of the Kurios is that all it will take is one
spot that's comparable to be willing to sacrifice the spot. We will
likely want to build some settlements toward you for Tailor/Jeweler
resources, but those can of course go in otherwise quite nasty
locations.

I am certain we're restricted to 3 cities, though. PB's 4th city was
because PBEM 1 was on a Large-size map.

Out of curiosity (and with guaranteed confidentiality), who are you
considering hitting yourself? In my opinion, the natural target from
your position is Sciz or Jkaen; Dantski's world spell is a
surprisingly good deterrent, and Selrahc's land will be hard for you
to hold. In addition - if what you said about Sciz's NAPs is true,
then he'll be coming for you sooner or later, so you might as well
plan on a war.

Anyway, more to come later once I have some information.[/COLOR]

So, the way I see it, right now the best opportunities are in taking advantage of the Mistform eating Jkaen. Settle toward him, take his capital as city#3, and just use settlements elsewhere. Frankly, it's not worth fighting with Ichabod right now, since I happen to agree with him that the Khazad are an inherently weaker civ, particularly as the game goes on and magic becomes important. We also haven't discussed the site with Dantski yet, just never got around to it. So if we insist on planting there, we could be facing the wrong end of a 2v1 dogpile quite easily.

So with that in mind, I need to find a replacement site to the east. Here's some pictures of that are, if you want to suggest something. Otherwise I'll pore over the map tomorrow myself and hopefully find something worth claiming.

[Gaspar]

God this map is bleak.

[Irgy]

Best I can see is the hill right under the armageddon counter's "1%" in the first screenshot. If I'm correct about where that gold in the other screenshot actually is, you can claim 2xincense, sheep, ivory, gold and an oasis. Pretty miserable really but the best I can see. 1E of that location might be better, you lose an incense but incense sucks as a tile anyway (I'd rather work a specialist) at least until it's 'spring'ed and you might gain something we can't see in the fog to the southeast. It's a good strategic location too.

To be perfectly honest I didn't like how far that other city was from our capital, but stuck to it since Ichabod seemed willing to go along with it.

War between Ichabod and Sciz sounds like an excellent idea, great suggestion in the diplo

[Mardoc]

Yeah, it is very nasty, Gaspar. The primary effect I see is neutering Aristograrianism as a primary strategy, but there are a lot of secondary effects, including the rush to war .

Irgy, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who had been having second thoughts. I think your proposed location could be pretty decent, with the only trouble being only 3 food surplus - if I understand you correctly, you're proposing here:



Pros - between the rivers, incense, and gold, this can be a very strong GNP city. It's nice and close to our border, so easy to defend both diplomatically and militarily. It's on a Plains Hill. It gets us access to 4 resources we don't currently own.

Cons - Sheep @+2 food and Oasis @ +1, +2 with KoTE is not a lot of food. Even with Granary and Smokehouse, this site will take a long while to grow.

A couple alternate sites.



Pros - 2 sheep and an oasis is a nice bit more than site1.

Cons - Everything else. No GNP boost here, no defensive boost, on Jkaen's borders not ours.


Pros - Sheep, Oasis, and eventual Deer is a better food surplus. Cotton is a new, commerce resource, and is good for Tailors too. It's on a Plains hill for production and defense.

Cons - Still not a lot of GNP here. Lack of river means there's little we can do to improve the food surplus.

All in all, I think you're right, Irgy. The river and the GNP specials are worth enough to outweigh the current food shortfall. In particular, we're debating between +3 and +5 food, when the extra boost toward a sooner KoTE, Sanitation, etc, will have a much larger effect on its long term strength, and as Kurios especially we can't afford to sacrifice too much long term strength for short term speed.

I still plan City3 to probably be Jkaen's capital, assuming the situation hasn't changed dramatically by the time we get to Centaurs. Any thoughts on what it'll take to be confident in killing a Mistform? Do we just need to stack enough units and wait for the 1% failure on attack?

[Azoth]

Sorry to hear you have to step back from the game, Irgy, though obviously, real life comes first. Unfortunately, I can't offer to fill in as the future Mercurian player because I recently switched to a Mac: no more FFH for me! (It's one of the reasons I started lurking the games here, actually.) While it means you might have to abandon the Mercurian rush plan, the more I look at this map, the more I feel it might be for the best. In a low-food environment, the strongest play is always Ashen Veil for Sacrifice the Weak. And since you have to tech KotE soon anyway, you might as well go all out: release Hyborem, punish everyone with Blight, bulb something expensive with the Grimoire, and crush the survivors with Ritualists+Centaurs+whatever. (It's not the most original plan, but it works.) Apart from Jkaen, who looks to be in serious trouble, no one has a particularly strong late game anyway.

Back to the present: That plains hill site Irgy mentioned (1S2E of the elephants) is probably your best bet for Megacity #2. The other viable option I see is the desert hill 1N of the elephants, which trades the gold and a fair few desert-river tiles for a second oasis and more (immediately cottage-able) plains tiles. It's definitely a more production- than commerce-oriented city long-term, but can get off the ground fast. (I can't say I care too much for the alternate sites you proposed, Mardoc.) That last site also has a plains forest hill in the first ring for a quick monument if you're not planning to fire your worldspell right away.