[Spoilers] Wang Kon of the Incans, or why I hate building monuments, by Krill

[Kuro]

Hmmm...

Yeah, I suppose Quick might change it up some, since it is less effective there than on Normal(Since I think it gives less + everything goes faster). Also, while chops aren't new, I feel that with Slavery's nerfing, they perform better now compared to before, when Slaving would provide a better return usually.

[Krill]

Hmmm...

Yeah, I suppose Quick might change it up some, since it is less effective there than on Normal(Since I think it gives less + everything goes faster). Also, while chops aren't new, I feel that with Slavery's nerfing, they perform better now compared to before, when Slaving would provide a better return usually.

Chopping is less effective while also slaving because of the amount of turns growth you have to regrow slaved pop is limited due to stopping growth when chopping into workers and settlers, the only worthwhile thing worth chopping. The amount it gives is relative to the cost of units/buildings doesn't change.

[Kuro]

Well...eh, I dunno how to countereply. You have a lot more experience than me, so odds are you're more correct.

[novice]

The solution of course is to time the chops correctly. Can be a headache unless you're India.

[Krill]

The solution of course is to time the chops correctly. Can be a headache unless you're India.

Exactly. That's pretty much the reason why I'll always feel that India is a crutch. OTOH, investing 40 hammers for a worker that returns 13/4 hpt pre maths and 5 hpt afterwards makes me wonder just how useful the mas deforestation is. Chopping for granaries, sure. Monuments, I guess so, workers and settlers yes...but it's only to get a turn advantage, and how many turns have you given up to build that worker in the first place?

[novice]

Exactly. That's pretty much the reason why I'll always feel that India is a crutch. OTOH, investing 40 hammers for a worker that returns 13/4 hpt pre maths and 5 hpt afterwards makes me wonder just how useful the mas deforestation is. Chopping for granaries, sure. Monuments, I guess so, workers and settlers yes...but it's only to get a turn advantage, and how many turns have you given up to build that worker in the first place?

You can use it as a crutch, or you can use it as a vaulting pole.

Anyway, I think the trick is to have the right amount of surplus workers that can chop when not hooking up food resources and cottaging. Then when calendar, civil service and machinery come along you'll have new jobs for the workers, and after that your investment has paid itself back.

Obviously building and chopping nothing but workers is the wrong approach, so a certain balance is required. And as you allude to, in some cases you can't really afford more cities so you should save your forests for later.

[Krill]

You can use it as a crutch, or you can use it as a vaulting pole.

Well, the numbers don't really seem to support that: EXP normally gets a worker out 2 turns or so ahead of none EXP leaders (pretty much constantly in the mod, and usually in vanilla), which means the EXP leader will be ahead on worker turns until it's time to chop the third forest, but will have benefited from getting food hooked a little quicker. India doesn't really compete with that, it's only when stacked together that India "takes off". I suppose the exception is when you have no food on the inner ring to hook up, in which case India will start to catch up sooner.

[scooter]

Exactly. That's pretty much the reason why I'll always feel that India is a crutch. OTOH, investing 40 hammers for a worker that returns 13/4 hpt pre maths and 5 hpt afterwards makes me wonder just how useful the mas deforestation is. Chopping for granaries, sure. Monuments, I guess so, workers and settlers yes...but it's only to get a turn advantage, and how many turns have you given up to build that worker in the first place?

Is it really more of a "crutch" than, say, err.... Terraces? The amount of worker turns in the early game that can be saved with fast workers is equally as impressive if not more impressive than the amount of hammers saved due to Terraces. The only difference is the Fast Worker is useful ALL game long, and also has military tactical implications that need to be accounted for.

I just think calling it a crutch is crazy when you put it next to Terraces or Stonehenge even, because you can make the same argument about both of them. Overpowered? Sure why not. So are Terraces though.

Edit: crossposted with Krill's post above

[scooter]

Well, the numbers don't really seem to support that: EXP normally gets a worker out 2 turns or so ahead of none EXP leaders (pretty much constantly in the mod, and usually in vanilla), which means the EXP leader will be ahead on worker turns until it's time to chop the third forest, but will have benefited from getting food hooked a little quicker. India doesn't really compete with that, it's only when stacked together that India "takes off". I suppose the exception is when you have no food on the inner ring to hook up, in which case India will start to catch up sooner.

The flaw here is that India's fast worker is basically a third trait. It's easy to pair Fast workers with any given Exp leader, like you said.

Even if you don't... Pair it with any two traits... The FW does catch up to Exp eventually, except the India player gets an extra trait that can be whatever the heck he wants. That's the part you seem to be leaving out - the fast worker is basically a 3rd trait.

[Krill]

Is it really more of a "crutch" than, say, err.... Terraces? The amount of worker turns in the early game that can be saved with fast workers is equally as impressive if not more impressive than the amount of hammers saved due to Terraces. The only difference is the Fast Worker is useful ALL game long, and also has military tactical implications that need to be accounted for.

I just think calling it a crutch is crazy when you put it next to Terraces or Stonehenge even, because you can make the same argument about both of them. Overpowered? Sure why not. So are Terraces though.

Edit: crossposted with Krill's post above

FW is a crutch because it made MM easier. Terrace doesn't make MM easier, it just means you don't need to build monuments. Nothing about hammers saved, or if it is overpowered, just the ease at which you can ignore the need to MM.