"Minor Leaders" Addition Discussion

[Bobchillingworth]

If you are like me (and if you aren't, why not), you occasionally find yourself wishing that you had more options when it comes to leader selections in FFH. Sure, the current crop covers a range of playing styles and combinations, but some traits in EitB are alarmingly rare (cough, IND), and a few civs really lack for diversity unless you play with Unrestricted Leaders.



Thankfully there is a ready solution at hand. Base FFH comes with a number of "minor" civilization leaders, who mostly crop up only in the official Scenarios. One, Minister Koun, appears with some regularity in normal games, while I believe that some of the others can be spawned using colonies (I've never tested this though).



What I propose is bringing a number of these leaders into EitB, to add some additional trait combinations and flavor to the game. Since most of them currently possess only one playable trait, I have amended their combos, or in some cases devised entirely new ones.


Sareln has told me that he would consider adding some new leaders to the game provided that they meet the following criteria:


1. They must use new trait combinations not held by any current leader

2. They cannot have any traits which are overpowered with their civs

3. No civ can have too many leaders total- so I won't be suggesting any new leaders for civs that already have three.



With those guidelines in mind, here are the leaders & traits I have to suggest [leaderhead images taken from Xienwolf's game manual]:



[SIZE="4"]Leader: Thessalonica

Civilization: Elohim

Alignment: Neutral

Traits: IND, SPI [/SIZE]





Purpose: Thessalonica would add a few new things to the mod. The Elohim presently have a distinct emphasis on the spiritual line thanks to Monks, but lack any leaders to take advantage of it. IND is presently under-represented in EitB, and could synergize with SPI as part of a Mercurian-beeline, as Fanatacism is also necessary for higher-tier Discipline units. I suggest Neutral both for flavor purposes & so that Thess cannot get an early event prophet and spiral out of control using SPI & Altar stages.





[SIZE="4"]Leader: Volanna

Civilization: Svartalfar

Alignment: Evil

Traits: AGG, EXP [/SIZE]





Purpose: The intent behind Volanna is for there to be a Svart leader who can expand quickly, has a health bonus to make abandoning the Leaves for something like Esus significantly more palatable, and who has Aggressive for an emphasis on more straight-up combat, as opposed to Faeryl's "hit-and-run" commando approach. Volanna's leaderhead has absolutely no bearing on why she should be in the game [/SINCERITY]





[SIZE="4"]Leader: Rivanna the Wraith Lord

Civilization: Svartalfar

Alignment: Evil

Traits: ORG, SUM [/SIZE]





Purpose: Rivanna's role for the Svarts would be to serve as their dual economic-Illusionist leader of choice. Right now the Svarts really have no economic traits, which is a shame for an Elven civ, and it can make it difficult to justify picking them when all three Ljo leaders can take better advantage of their Elfy economies. ORG certainly isn't the greatest economic trait ever devised, but it is something that no other Elven leader has, gives Rivanna a niche as a great leader for spread-out and/or large Elven civs, and Command Posts nicely accommodate any of the diverse Svart unit line options. Summoner should pair very nicely with Illusionists, but is kept in check somewhat by the absence of Arcane.


The Svart's don't necessarily need both Volanna and Rivanna, although I think each brings a unique quality to the civ. I certainly think that they deserve more options than just Faeryl however.





[SIZE="4"]Leader: Tya Kiri

Civilization: Amurities

Alignment: Good

Traits: SPI, PHI [/SIZE]





Purpose: Spiritual is the main reasons to pick Tya, whose purpose is to allow the Amurities to truly take advantage of using Govannon to teach arcane spells to T3 & T4 priests. Dain and Valedia can already do it, but pursing such a strategy can mean wasting their Arcane traits. EDIT: Removed due to already having suggested the SPI/IND combo for Thess. IND is just a filler trait, and is replaceable; at present, it gives her a unique combination, isn't overpowering in conjunction with SPI, and helps IND gain a wider representation among leaders.

PHI actually pairs rather well with SPI, thanks to the synergy of getting more Prophets & more quickly, which in turn means faster Altar stages for boosting Discipline units. A possible alternative is AGG instead, but I fear that Aggressive Firebows & Govannon-taught Discipline units might be too powerful.





[SIZE="4"]Leader: Averax the Cambion

Civilization: Sheaim

Alignment: Evil

Traits: AGG, CRE, BAR [/SIZE]





Purpose: Sheaim Pyre Zombie specialist. CRE abets a PZ rush via helping get Bronze more quickly, and saves hammers that might otherwise be spent on monuments. AGG + PZ is a def. power combo, but should be held in check by the Sheaim's lack of a melee line past T2- like Tasunke, this guy will live or die by the early-to-midgame rush. Without Summoner, his arcane line is hardly better than anyone else's, and CRE will lose power as the game goes on. AGG will keep him at least nominally competitive though, since it still works perfectly well with mounted, recon and discipline units after players have developed counters to PZ. I considered suggesting PHI instead of CRE, but that seemed awfully powerful.

EDIT: Barbarian is also a sensible additional trait. It means that Averax can focus even more singly on getting his PZ out, but at the same time he is hampered in teching to later-game units. Barbarian also means that the Sheaim can summon AC-spawned barbs without necessarily fearing the consequences for their own empires. And seriously, just look at this guy- the trait fits him as snugly as that horrible gimp mask-thing.



[SIZE="4"]Leader: Shekinah

Civilization: Sidar

Alignment: Neutral

Traits: ARC, CRE or CHA, CRE [/SIZE]





Purpose: I can't decide whether Shekinah should have ARC or CHA- either way, the intention is for a leader who possesses the means to get the Sidar wanes more quickly (acceptable with the restored level 6 exp requirement), but sacrifices almost all of Sandalphon's excellent economic builder potential in doing so. CRE is intentionally a terrible trait for pairing with either ARC or CHA, to keep her from being overpowered.





[SIZE="4"]Leader: Furia the Mad

Civilization: Balseraphs

Alignment: Neutral

Traits: RAI, CHA, BAR [/SIZE]





Purpose: Added per Mardoc's suggestion for a Balseraphs leader who can make genuine use out of their three special recon-line units. Perpentarch could theoretically use any of the Balseraphs UU very well, but the presence of Insane makes basing any sort of long-term strategy around his traits is an exercise in futility. Raiders pairs perfectly with Recon units, allowing Furia to move her Harlequins deep into enemy territory to Taunt out garrisons or other entrenched forces. Charismatic is there largely because it is a unique pairing with Raiders which also has some nice synergy. Charismatic also fits along with Barbarian on a thematic level, representing Furia's dual-personalities (which is also the reason I suggest her being Neutral). It might not matter for game-play purposes, but it is nice to have leader's traits make thematic sense, if for no other reason than to preserve flavor for SP games . Barbarian also supplies a few gameplay functions. First, it gives the game another Barbarian leader (which it could really use more of), second, it helps temper the otherwise excellent Raiders / Charismatic combination, and finally it allows the Balseraphs to use Loki as a neat pseudo-Ratine, converting barbarian cities.








So, that's all of them. The game has several other Minor Leaders who could potentially join the main game (including an astounding four other Illian leaders), but most of them didn't seem like they would add any actual depth to the game. For instance, the Hippus have two other leaders, but between Rhoanna & Tasunke, they already seem to have all of their bases covered. Does anyone have any alternative ideas- other leaders (who are already in the game files- no entirely new content please), or suggested alternatives to the trait combinations I have provided? Suggest away!

[Tatan]

Very interesting. A few small comments:

1) Your proposed versions of Thessalonica and Tya Kiri are both Ind/Spi, so one would have to be changed if both were accepted. Tya's Industrious trait seems the like the most obvious candidate.

2) Averax looks AWESOME for PZ rushing, which would be really cool for the Sheaim to have. That said, he seems like he could be a little too good, though that would bear testing.

3) A Cha/Cre Shekinah seems like much more fun than Arc/Cre to me. She could potentially make for an interesting rush leader; level up a few early units against the barbs, cast Into the Mist, and blitz somebody.

4) I agree that adding your Thessalonica and some form of another Svart leader would make the respective civs' game play a lot more interesting. I'm not as sold on Tya Kiri, though; she seems a little superfluous, considering that her sole purpose would be to further a particular strategy that is already feasible with the existing leaders.

5) Why make Tya Kiri good as opposed to neutral? (just curious)

[Bobchillingworth]

1) Your proposed versions of Thessalonica and Tya Kiri are both Ind/Spi, so one would have to be changed if both were accepted. Tya's Industrious trait seems the like the most obvious candidate.

Ugh, I'm an idiot. Was just reviewing my post when I noticed that, then saw your reply.


The issue with Tya is finding a trait to go along with SPI which isn't either A: taken by somebody else or B: way too good. Maybe PHI? I can't think of any SPI / PHI leaders off the top of my head. That would be a fairly powerful combo, but the Amurities might need the help anyway- their RB success record so far is appalling.


I agree that there is also the possibility that she is superfluous, but at present the Amurities have this awesome strategy of training Disciplines to use arcane spells so they can have fightin' pseudo-Mages, but nobody ever attempts it because with Arcane you'll already have a pile of Potent mage-ready Adepts lying around by the time you get Govannon, and without Spiritual your T3 Priests are only better than Mages by virtue of slightly higher base strength. Point being, they are a civ with more options than just Firebows or Early Mages, and I want to bring that out.



"Good" for Tya because, assuming all six leaders I have suggested make it into EitB, I don't want to add four Evil leaders and no Good ones.

[Mardoc]

I generally like these ideas, Bob.

I haven't had time to flesh these out, but a couple other civs who could use more leaders:

The Malakim could use an Arcane leader. Maybe Arcane Adaptive(Aggressive)? They've got the really rather neat Sand Lion spell, and Sun mana for using it anywhere (and getting movement boosts in the process), and the Citadel of Light...and these are almost always afterthoughts or simply ignored, because why would Varn want to go Arcane?

As a wilder thought - maybe they could have another Malakim-only spell that scorches all adjacent tiles?

The tougher question is why you'd give up Varn.


It's hard to really say the Balseraphs are missing something when Perpentach can be anything - but I don't tend to see a lot of use for their unique units up the Recon line. I'm not sure how to encourage that, but it'd be fun to see a leader whose focus is the aggressive carnival of doom.

[Bobchillingworth]

The Malakim could use an Arcane leader. Maybe Arcane Adaptive(Aggressive)? They've got the really rather neat Sand Lion spell, and Sun mana for using it anywhere (and getting movement boosts in the process), and the Citadel of Light...and these are almost always afterthoughts or simply ignored, because why would Varn want to go Arcane?

As luck would have it, the Malakim have a single Minor Leader in regular FFH, this guy:





Goes by the name of Kane. His alignment in-game is Neutral, and his traits are the morbidly amusingly worthless combo of Defender and Barbarian. Obviously Defender would have to go; I have trouble seeing how Barbarian would benefit the Malakim in any way, although it would be cool to have another Barbarian leader in the game.

I agree that an Arcane Malakim leader would be neat. Decius certainly isn't doing a good job fulfilling that role- the real issue, as you point out, is:

why you'd give up Varn.

The fact is that there simply isn't any reason why you wouldn't go Arcane with Varn, other than that there are better traits for his civ to have. But if that's the case, then what unique trait combination could a new, Arcane Malakim leader possess which would make them a viable contender with Varn? It would have to be something better than SPI, ARC and be at least situationally worth picking over Varn's econ/discipline focus and the Raiders of Decius. I personally am having a hard time coming up with something here.

As a wilder thought - maybe they could have another Malakim-only spell that scorches all adjacent tiles?

Way too powerful. Also, not the thread for it

It's hard to really say the Balseraphs are missing something when Perpentach can be anything - but I don't tend to see a lot of use for their unique units up the Recon line. I'm not sure how to encourage that, but it'd be fun to see a leader whose focus is the aggressive carnival of doom.

I think this might have a bit more promise, because you are correct that there is a clear leader niche left unfulfilled. Perpentarch is great fun, but too unreliable to base much of a game-long strategy around (outside of a Mimic Rush). The Balseraphs have *three* unused minor leaders, so there's no issue of having to add entirely new content to the game. If the goal is to get more emphasis out of their Recon UU (Harlequins, Task Masters, Courtesans), then I think Raiders if the first trait you want to have. For the second there are a few neat options. Maybe Charismatic? That would make Arena battles a better option as well. Adding Barbarian as a third trait could be cool- the Balseraphs can actually do fairly well with it by using Loki to flip barbarian cities to them. That could also help otherwise bring RAI / CHA back down to earth, since those two traits are awfully strong together.

[NobleHelium]

Nobody is going to take anything other than Varn for the Malakim. I didn't even remember that Decius was a Malakim leader, lol. If you want other leaders to actually be alternatives, you'd have to nerf Varn.

[Amelia]

Would it be possible to implement Sinister / Dexterous as a leader trait?

[Bobchillingworth]

Maybe, but those are traits associated exclusively with specific civs, and should not be applied to other leaders.

[Gaspar]

Just poking my head in to say I really like the idea of adding a couple of Barbarian leaders.

[Amelia]

Fair point. Creative / Aggressive / Ingenuity for the new Perpentach leader? Keelyn's broken with two traits, Perpentach has 3 to play with, so it makes sense that the new leader should be 2.5.