Injera Wrote:Hmm, I just read every post from zakalwe and novice that mentioned each other.
Actually, the annoying the forum search doesn't show up when the only text you're searching for is the quotation header. Blech, I'll need to run through the whole thread. I still think something's there, though.
Note: This post contains several very long quoted posts. I have spoilered them to save space.
Lewwyn Wrote:I think the pling kill was reasonable. She was doing her best villager impression. Posting vote tallies and trying to be helpful. To the other wolfpack she looked like a trusted villager and someone they would not be able to get lynched. Pling was simply too good at acting like a villager.
I could have sworn it was Pindicator doing the vote-tallies. Not Pling. She only did two, in posts 550 & 773.
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Lewwyn, you could be very well right about Zakalwe and Novice, though I think Zakalwe is less probable than Novice based on the vote analysis I did earlier. But you're dead wrong about me, and I think that you're blinding yourself to the idea that Tasunke could be playing you for a fool.
You read that big post right? This one here? Here's the relevant parts about me:
Tasunke Wrote:...
Sareln and Lewwyn -> Basically engineered the tie. While it was Lewwyn's bravado that allowed the tie to happen, it was Sareln's vote that sealed the deal. And we didn't get much explanation for Sareln's vote, did we? Out of these two I think I would find Sareln more suspicous.
...
Summary?
If I wasn't Tasunke, I would likely be torn between voting for Tasunke, Gaspar, and Sareln.
Whereas, as myself, I am more leaning towards Sareln, Serdoa, or Zakalwe.
...
So when I try to look at things from an outsider's perspective, vs my own personal biases, I do see one name in the overlap. That of Sareln.
Even beyond this situation I am still suspicious of Zakalwe (followed by Novice and Serdoa), but at least from the perspective of stepping back to get a fresh perspective, I think Sareln is the best choice for now.
The reason Tasunke says he suspects me is b/c it was my vote that created the Bigger/Commodore tie and that I "didn't explain myself"? He says the tie causes 2 suspicions, one of you and one of me. But I did explain myself when I made the vote, and I call him out on it later:
Sareln Wrote:
Tasunke Wrote:Sareln and Lewwyn -> Basically engineered the tie. While it was Lewwyn's bravado that allowed the tie to happen, it was Sareln's vote that sealed the deal. And we didn't get much explanation for Sareln's vote, did we? Out of these two I think I would find Sareln more suspicous.
Sareln Wrote:Thinking about it some more, I think I like Commodore's non-claim over Bigger's claim. We don't know the details of the setup, so Commodore claiming a non-role is hyper-risky for a wolf since as more and more player die out if no other vanilla villager flips he is dead without ever forcing us to mislynch to determine true/false. It would be much safer to claim something off the mafia wiki or some other resource and run the risk of having a double in the village, then at least he can possibly trade 1-for-1 with contesting villager/wolf claims.
Bigger
What about this isn't clear Tasunke?
and he responds:
Tasunke Wrote:Okay. So your explanation was that we should keep the vanilla villager alive. Which I suppose is fair enough given the role madness* set up that has become tradition.
*= http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Role_madness
My point is that if you did NOT want a tie, you would have asked for people to pile onto Bigger. But instead you just "happened" to change your vote to Bigger due to Commodore's nilla claim. You made no arguments for why a tie should be beneficial, but instead only made a simple argument for the Bigger vote (equivalent to your simple argument for Commodore's vote a mere 3 pages earlier).
I suppose I should have worded myself a bit differently, but ultimately if you truly believed that Bigger was the better candidate (especially if you did NOT want a tie) then why did you give only a simple explanation and leave it at that, without asking for more Bigger votes?
Ultimately this leaves me feeling that you simply wanted to get the tie created. Collaboration with Lewwyn? Possible, but not necessary. Instead, Lewwyn had, either by design or by his own meanderings, engineered the set up for a tie, and you gladly gave it to him -> with no complaints. Which makes me think that either you thought both were just as likely guilty or you did not wish to be seen as saving Commodore (which is something you could have likely been doing). Combined with the fact that the current discussion is revolving around Black wolves having a risk-taker (Zakalwe, Lewwyn, etc), I think you + Whomever the risktaker is would be more than willing to engineer a tie in the hopes of saving Commodore for at least one day.
And if Lewwyn IS innocent, then perhaps you just saw the opportunity and grabbed it. Either way, your relatively complacent "completion" of the tie looks rather suspicious to me. I overlooked it earlier because I was more suspicious of Lewwyn at the time.
To which my response was:
Sareln Wrote:Not all arguments have to be complex Tasunke. Sometimes the truth is simple. Saving Commodore for a day while exposing a pair of wolves don't make sense in my opinion.
I think that if there had been more time in the day I would've tried to convince someone to vote for Bigger and break the tie, but there wasn't time and Commodore would be a decent lynch too. I preferred Bigger over him for the meta-reasons of their differing claims (namely that Commodore's claim was self-lynching if it was false, while Bigger's was not).
So Tasunke backpedals and then says he suspects me because I created the Bigger/Commodore tie w/out giving a long explanation (eg. a Tasunke level brain-dump spam-post). So even though the reason is one he can and does accept, he still thinks I created the tie to save Commodore and perhaps implicate Lewwyn.
I would like to gently point out at this point that length in post does not necessarily balance out strength of ideas and that not all good theories need to be held together with duct tape and silly-string. Tasunke, I am not you. I think differently, I write differently, and things that intuitively make sense to me do not make sense to you and vice-versa.
I voted Bigger > Commodore b/c Commodore had made an (eventually) self-lynching claim and Bigger had not. Pure meta when choosing between the two.
...
whew...
... deep breath.
Aaand to bring it all back, that's all Tasunke has. It's all Lewwyn has too beyond "oh and he's quiet too" when he lumps me in with Zakalwe and Novice where he thinks he has the whole puzzle solved, everything is hunky dory, and can we just get on with the lynching now.
The funny part?
I agree with him about Novice, but I can't just let him keep giving Tasunke a clean bill of health waving away all the scumtells with "oh he's just playing a survivalist game".
Also, Tasunke; I think I put you on notice in the night when I did that vote analysis and you got scared. Like I've said before, all those changes in style that Meiz and I mentioned have been "fixed" and I can't quite help but think that it's all an act. The fact that you dripped out your answers to the style-fixing comments just makes it look even worse.
Well, it's taking way too long to gather all these quotes. Want to hear an interesting idea?
As zak said recently:
zakalwe Wrote:Gaspar, I think the best place to look for white wolves is among the people who showed no interest in lynching MNG, and the best place to look for black wolves is among the people who showed no interest in lynching Commodore.
What if Commodore, novice, and zakalwe are all black wolves? Commodore's not having fun Day 1 and under pressure, so the three agree to put him out of his misery. With novice hammering him and zakalwe creating the diversion (a hilariously successful diversion, I might add), they have created the perfect alibi- a black wolf that could only be white.
novice Wrote:For my part I want to lynch Commodore today (as I wanted yesterday), and depending on what we learn quite possibly lynch Tasunke the day after. We feel railroaded because we're on track.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily rule your theory out, but I also think its a little too cute of a play. I will say that I find it interesting at one point or another they have each voiced a suspicion on each other but neither have done their usual probing.
As an example, though, check out this string of posts over the course of Night 1:
304: He reacts to the lynch, brings up the subject of two packs.
novice Wrote:That was weird, skimming through the thread and seeing votes pile up on MNG with a sinking feeling. Then it turned out ok after all.
With two wolf packs I guess that means the village has more voting power than usual, and large bandwagons are less fishy. Although I guess there were some members of the other wolfpack on MNG, so hm.
318: Defends zak, establishing zak is not a white wolf
novice Wrote:Zak switched the 5-5 tie between MNG and Rowain to 6-4, which set off the bandwagon. Then he presumably went to bed leaving MNG to hang. So I'm not sure Zak is the best lynch candidate.
322: Implicates Commodore, defends zak again
novice Wrote:That comment is always a 10 out of 10 on my scumdar. Anyway, after rereading, besides Gaspar I could also get behind a
Commodore, Ichabod or Injera lynch. Commodore is simply acting scummish, Ichy and Injy seem to be in scumdar evasion mode. For that matter, with
two wolf packs, MNG being a white wolf doesn't necessarily have much bearing on the Rowain case. And I really think Rowain's attempt to link MNG
to Zak is odd.
350: Defends zak again, reiterates there are two packs, and says how unlikely it would be to bus a fellow wolf on a 3 wolf team.
novice Wrote:Ichabod, here's why I think there are two wolf packs:
mardoc Wrote:The discussion thread said it was possible, the rules said it was possible - and MNG's PM said 'white werewolf pack'. You really think Noble would do this much misdirection?
With a 3-wolf pack, that means Zak is unlikely to bus a fellow wolf IMO.
353 Jumps on commodore, says packs don't matter while insinutating Commodore is a black wolf (I guess they do matter?)
novice Wrote:Your pack, you mean?
I'm sorry to jump on you like this but your posts just seem incredibly suspicious.
In case you're town I'll give you a proper answer too - let the wolves worry about pack membership, a wolf is wolf. We need to kill'em all. I mean, prolonged wolf infighting seems good, but if we see a clear suspect we should just go after [Strike]you[/Strike] him.
355 More on Commodore
novice Wrote:To be clear, what this post reads like to me is "can we all agree to lynch Gaspar and forget about me, since that's the best
strategy?"
Also, Rowain was eaten on Night 2, the "black" night assuming alternation. Of the four people to vote for him on Day 2, Commodore, novice, and zakalwe were all included (JKaen being the 4th.) zakalwe and novice cast their first votes for him early in the day before moving on to their primary targets. Still, a little suspicion might keep the baner away...
And one more from Day 3 that might interest some of the current players:
novice Wrote:I know this is lame but I'm happy with all the current votees. This post is interesting though:
Commodore Wrote:Apparently NH enjoys being cruel, although given the weakness of that last role being vanilla doesn't seem very much worse, I guess. Tasunke, are you sure you have the limitation on your watches? Or did you watch me and find a disappointing lack of fangs? Damn shame about Bigger being legit and dead...voyeurizing would have helped.
Jkaen does seem checked out, and that is apparently rare for him in these games, but what, pray tell, of Molach? MNG has four times the posts of him.
Commodore knows he's a target and he can tell that Tasunke and JKaen could be alternative lynch targets. And yet he opts to launch Molach as a new candidate instead - it doesn't seem like a good move for self-preservation.
So either Commodore is a villager who thinks it's more important to pressure Molach than try to save his own skin, or he's a wolf who doesn't want to lynch Tasunke or JKaen (or both).
Maybe I'm reading too much into this but I found the post suspicious and I'm leaning towards the Commodore as wolf interpretation.
Oh and by the way, why on earth would Tasunke watch you, Commodore? That makes no sense at all.
Sareln Wrote:I could have sworn it was Pindicator doing the vote-tallies. Not Pling. She only did two, in posts 550 & 773.
And 749, but yeah those are what I was referring too. I knew that Pin did the full track changes, which I think are exceedingly helpful.
Okay Sareln, I'm buying for now. Both Novice and Zak are more suspicious now.
Injera Wrote:353 Jumps on commodore, says packs don't matter while insinutating Commodore is a black wolf (I guess they do matter?)
novice Wrote:Your pack, you mean?
I'm sorry to jump on you like this but your posts just seem incredibly suspicious.
In case you're town I'll give you a proper answer too - let the wolves worry about pack membership, a wolf is wolf. We need to kill'em all. I mean, prolonged wolf infighting seems good, but if we see a clear suspect we should just go after [Strike]you[/Strike] him.
Injera, love the work here, especially the above quote I've requoted. Certainly looks like it written from the perspective of an opposite pack no? I think Novice slipped a bit here. Got a bit heated about losing MNG.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
Lewwyn Wrote:Injera, love the work here, especially the above quote I've requoted. Certainly looks like it written from the perspective of an opposite pack no? I think Novice slipped a bit here. Got a bit heated about losing MNG.
Actually the opposite, but the tell is the same. He's a black wolf role-playing a white wolf.
